Panelboards located in condo or apartment units

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joe tedesco

Senior Member
Scenario:

Panelboards or "subpanels" located in condo or apartment units are usually installed without any main OCPD, because they are usually located where the electric meters are installed, either in a room on the same floor, like in my building here in Boston, or in a locked electrical equipment room(s) that is only accessible by key building management personnel.

It has come to my attention that some inspectors who are hired to inspect a unit being sold in the State of Illinois [in the Chicago area], will point out that the lack of the "main" in the condo panel to disconnect the feeder and all circuit breakers when there are over 6 installed [they are already protected as described above] is a safety hazard and is based upon the following two items 10. and 15., in their State Rules for Home Inspections SOP:

"10) Significantly Deficient: Unsafe or not functioning.

15) Unsafe: A condition in a system or component that is a significant risk of personal injury or property damage during normal, day-to-day use. The risk may be due to damage, deterioration, improper installation or a change in accepted residential construction standards."


What are your opinions?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Joe,
I don't know, but Chicago has a code that is more stringent than the NEC in a number of areas. Most notable is the prohibition of cable wiring methods. Maybe they have a rule requiring a main in these panels.
I would also suggest that in the case of a condo there may be a violaiton of 240.24(B) if the panel does not have a main. To me the key is that the exception permits the main to be remote only where there is 'continuous building management supervision". In many cases the building mangement are not onsite on a continuous basis requiring that the occupant have access to "all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy".
Don
 

joe tedesco

Senior Member
Chicago

Chicago

Don:

I agree with the 240.24 reference.

I am also aware of some of these types of buildings where the "main" was installed in the apartment panelboard.

I asked how that was accomplished, but have not received any reply. I was told that the electrician was getting $250.00 to install the "main" in each unit -- that would be OK if the existing equipment was designed for that type of add on.

I asked if the electrician was back feeding a "main" and mentioned the line/load restrictions on a CB per UL because that's the way I think the "main" was installed.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I asked if the electrician was back feeding a "main" and mentioned the line/load restrictions on a CB per UL because that's the way I think the "main" was installed.

As far as I know unless a CB is specifically labeled LINE/LOAD then it can be wired either way. A back fed breaker is code compliant as long as it has some sort of fastening means to keep it in place. This would be fall under 408.36(F).
 

russ

Senior Member
Location
Burbank IL
I'd say their a little confused!


18-27-384.16. Overcurrent Protection.
(a) Lighting and Appliance Branch-Circuit Panelboard Individually Protected. Each lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall be individually protected on the supply side by not more than two main circuit breakers or two sets of fuses having a combined rating not greater than that of the panelboard.
Exception No. 1: Individual protection for a lighting and appliance panelboard shall not be required if the panelboard feeder has overcurrent protection not greater than the rating of the panelboard.
Exception No. 2: For existing installations, individual protection for lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboards shall not be required where such panelboards are used as service equipment in supplying an individual residential occupancy.
 

russ

Senior Member
Location
Burbank IL
PART F. SERVICE EQUIPMENT? DISCONNECTING MEANS
18-27-230.70. General.
Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the service-entrance conductors. (a) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location in the basement or first floor area of a building or structure, within the main wall, at a point not exceeding 5 ft (1.92 m) from the point of entry. When the distance of the service raceway needs to exceed 5 ft (1.92 m) from the point of entry into the building, the service raceway shall conform to the requirements of Section 18-27-230.6.
Exception: For the purposes of this section, readily accessible locations include dedicated electrical rooms, within the main walls, meeting the following conditions:
(1) Access to room either from inside or outside the building shall be provided for all occupants;
(2) Rooms shall have a secure, locking-type door(s) that prohibits access to persons other than tenants and/or occupants of the building.
(3) Rooms shall be of the same construction as the building;
(4) Rooms shall be for the exclusive use of the electrical service metering and distribution equipment;
(5) Panelboards with main and branch circuit protection shall be provided within the interior of each unit or space being served;
(6) A wall switch controlled lighting outlet shall be provided for illumination in all such electrical rooms.
Service disconnecting means shall not be installed in bathrooms.
In high rise buildings or similar buildings, the disconnecting means for the multiple services recognized by Section 18-27- 230.2(b)(2) shall be located in a dedicated fire-rated room as near as practical to the serving utility vault. The rooms for the ?Main? service disconnecting means which serve the building common element loads shall have a three-hour fire rating. The electrical service rooms for tenant loads shall have a 2-hour minimum fire rating. These rooms shall be for the exclusive use of electrical equipment. Separate service disconnecting means shall be required for each tenant floor. These disconnects shall be permitted to be located on a floor other than the floor served. Where more than one service is permitted to serve one floor, the various disconnecting means and
their locations shall be prominently identified as required by Section 18-27-230.2(e). All such rooms shall comply with Section 18-27-110.26.
(b) Marking. Each service disconnect shall be permanently marked to identify it as a service disconnect.
(c) Suitable for Use. Each service disconnecting means shall be suitable for the prevailing conditions. Service equipment installed in
hazardous (classified) locations shall comply with the requirements of Articles 500 through 517.
 

peteo

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles
My opinion is that a backfed main does not provide access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy.

Assuming these units are not 240.21(b) taps, the correct place for each disconnect is as mentioned, where the feeder is distributed from the metering equipment. In case of a fire, for example, the tenant, manager or FD shuts down that unit (those units) completely as opposed to leaving an energized feeder.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Russ,
I don't see any conflict. They are two different rules. One covers the required overcurrent protection for the panel and the second covers the means of disconnect.
Don
 

russ

Senior Member
Location
Burbank IL
It looks to me that the main is required within 5 ft of the service entrance.
The power to the condos or apartments are feeders on the load side of their individual mains.
One section, 18-27-384.16 says that is the only over-current protection for the panel required.
18-27-230.70 (5) says you have to have a main in the panel inside the individual units. I take that to mean you have to have a second main in the panel it's self.
Sounds goofy but that's what I think it's saying.
 

pierre

Senior Member
Don
"In many cases the building mangement are not onsite on a continuous basis requiring that the occupant have access to "all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy". "

I am not sure that "onsite" management is required based on the actual wording of the section/exception.




"under continuous building management supervision"

To me this does not say the management needs to be onsite, which in some instances, they are not.
 

pierre

Senior Member
How many buildings have we been in, where during the day there are people in the building working for the management company, yet the management company is in another town. At night these people working for the management go home. Sometimes we even have buildings where there are no management people there, unless a call goes out to the management company for help. In the New York where I am from, we see this regularly.
I say this, as the buildings are under management supervision, but not necessarily "onsite" supervision.
 
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