Receptacles in unfinished crawl space

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Tarzan

Member
iwire said:
Well we can think that but it does not change anything.

Also as it stands right now the exceptions that do exist for garages and basements are being removed from the NEC for 2008.


Sounds like there may be a lot of wasted thawed food in the future.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Tarzan said:
Sounds like there may be a lot of wasted thawed food in the future.

Or someone could make an inexpensive freezer alarm. They are available now but I have yet to find a cheap one.

That aside, basically if electric equipment has enough leakage current to trip a GFCI it should be serviced.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Tarzan said:
Sounds like there may be a lot of wasted thawed food in the future.
Isn't that somethin'!

Supposedly, GFIs are not fooled by what caused nuisance tripping in the past. The Code Making Panels have told us this.

My informed perspective leaves me less than mollified by the CMP.

Kinda like AFCI protection, and the proposed expansion of the areas required to be protected. Can't independently test 'em, and companies like Siemens tell me I don't need to know anything about their guts.

Lotta wasted thawed food. . .yup.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
Well we can think that but it does not change anything.
You can't be suggesting that the code says what it says?!
eek.gif
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
Or someone could make an inexpensive freezer alarm.

I have actual seen a freezer with an alarm built into it. When the power goes it the alaram beeps. For how long I don't know.
 

bstoin

Senior Member
iwire said:
Or someone could make an inexpensive freezer alarm. They are available now but I have yet to find a cheap one.

That aside, basically if electric equipment has enough leakage current to trip a GFCI it should be serviced.
Yeah that works great unless no-one is around to hear it.
This brings to mind that once I replaced a GFI with a regular duplex that was used for a freezer in a basement. The homeowners went on vacation for 2 weeks, came home and had a real mess (due to nuisance tripping). :confused:
I, for one, would never put a fridge or freezer on a GFI regardless of the code. If it was a problem for the inspector I would inform the homeowner I would be back after all the finals to remove the GFI.
 

bstoin

Senior Member
Just a word on nuissance tripping:
I have found that in many cases the GFI in the garage or basement has other outlets downstream as in outside recepticles. We all know how often some of these outlets will trip the GFI due to water intrusion (sprinkler systems, rain, etc).
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
bstoin said:
I, for one, would never put a fridge or freezer on a GFI regardless of the code. If it was a problem for the inspector I would inform the homeowner I would be back after all the finals to remove the GFI.


There are some electricians across town that go around removing AFCI's. I wouldn't want to be those people if a fire starts and someone is killed.

I don't really think much of AFCI's but it's Code so they get installed.

You can do what you want but remember you are responsible. I get paid to work, not to take chances.
 

bstoin

Senior Member
stickboy1375 said:
Is a freezer worth of food worth a life? god I hope not...
Are you seriously suggesting that putting a freezer or fridge on a non GFI outlet is going to get people killed?? oh please:rolleyes:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
bstoin said:
Are you seriously suggesting that putting a freezer or fridge on a non GFI outlet is going to get people killed?? oh please:rolleyes:


Yes, that is a fact, it has happened.

That is specifically why GFCIs are required for all 15 and 20 amp 125 volt receptacles in commercial kitchens.

As far as this

bstoin said:
I, for one, would never put a fridge or freezer on a GFI regardless of the code. If it was a problem for the inspector I would inform the homeowner I would be back after all the finals to remove the GFI.

This is electrical code forum, we are not going to condone that kind of unprofessional suggestion.

If that is your attitude maybe this forum is not for you.

The fact is the NEC is charged with electrical safety, they are not concerned with anyones spoiled food.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
bstoin,

I tend to agree with you: using GFCI receptacles for fixed in place appliances such as freezers or sump pumps is a mis-application that will cause more damage than it prevents.

However the 'professional' response is not 'I will blithely ignore the code.' Instead it is 'I will try to get the code changed.' _You_ can participate in the code making process if you so choose. You can also petition your local government to adopt the NEC with amendments. But the NEC, once adopted by a local government, becomes _law_. Saying that you are going to intentionally violate a law is an entirely different kettle of fish. Sometimes a law is so unjust that you should intentionally violate it...and be willing to go to prison for this 'civil disobedience'. I don't believe that GFCI requirements rise to this level of importance :)

My feeling on GFCIs for this application is that they will work to save lives.

However any safety tool must be evaluated in terms of costs and benefits. GFCIs cost money. Damage caused by GFCIs tripping in situations where the don't actually protect a life is another cost. That 'freezer of defrosted food' or 'basement unnecessarily flooded' is a cost. These costs come out of resources that could be spent elsewhere, and the resources lost were the product of human effort. Destroy enough _stuff_ and you have essentially made someone's live a waste.

The calculus of this sort of 'death versus damage' is tremendously difficult, with lots of unknowns, and at some point it comes down to assigning a dollar value to a human life, and so is often very uncomfortable to discuss.

I do not know the actual numbers, so I am going on a gut feeling here. I believe that the costs of these additional GFCIs will outweigh the benefits. I believe that in this situation, we will trade small amounts damage to large numbers of people (more stress, poorer living conditions, health effects from flooded basements, food poisoning) in order to prevent serious damage (electrocution)to a very few people.

I also want to make clear that I am discussing GFCIs as applied to fixed appliances that run unattended, where loss of power may go un-noticed for a time, and with good grounding such that ground fault leakage current is almost certainly returning through the ground pin of the appliance. I believe that, for the most part, GFCIs are very beneficial, and I support requiring GFCIs, but with the exceptions that have served well up to now.

-Jon
 

hillbilly

Senior Member
bikeindy said:
What we have done in the past is cut in a receptacle on the main floor of the home somewhere the homeowner would notice if it was tripped and convienient to use for vacuuming. place the rec there on a GFCI breaker and run from there to your rec in the crawl, this gives the homeowner an easy reset place and an extra receptacle they use from time to time and will know that it is on. I do like the hardwire method better myself.


This is a good idea.
Rather than use a GFI breaker, why not feed thru a GFI receptacle that has a trip indicator (pilot light)?
You could even go further and parallel a (battery back-up) exit light (installed in a hallway) that turns on when the power fails. That way the owner knows for sure when the GFI has tripped and also gives them a emergency exit light.
If I had a basement that was prone to flood, or a basement freezer that was full of food, that's what I would do.
Just a thought.
steve
 

bstoin

Senior Member
I would like to put this one to rest.
First...anyone who knows me knows that I am a very safety conscious person (take a look at my past posts). I would never do something that would jeopardize someone's life or safety.
In all my years of doing remodelling and electric work (more than 20), I have NEVER seen anyone fail an inspection because a freezer, refrigerator or similar appliance was not ground fault protected regardless of the location. I can genuinely say that I have also NEVER seen a fridge in ANY kitchen-old house or new-in Ohio, South Carolina or Florida (all of which I have worked in for quite some time) placed on a GFCI.
In fact if you look at article 210.8 it is quite clear that there are exceptions to GFCI placement and usage requirements such as: those not readily accessible, single recepticle used for appliance, etc.
Of course, your right in that people have died from certain electrical accidents such as I had mentined in my previous posts, but there is absolutely nothing (that I have seen in the code...correct me if I am wrong) that says a fridge or freezer HAS to be on a GFCI.

I, myself am an electrical fire survivor. My wife and I had to jump from our 2nd floor window at 1:00 AM because of a fire which started under the sink (disposal??). An AFCI most likely would have prevented this fire but I don't think the code will ever change to the point that every outlet in a house sould be AFCI and/or GFCI protected.
Yes our job is to prevent accidents to the best of our, and the code's ability, but we can never prevent all accidents, fires or electrocutions.
I appologize for getting so far off the original subject/post...what was the question, again?:rolleyes:
 

amptech

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
To address the original post, I always install a GFCI receptacle near the access to the crawlspace and feed the sump pump receptacle from it. We are under the IRC here and it requires a sump pit in all crawlspaces so they all get this receptacle.
 
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