I could be wrong

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
tallgirl said:
On-line version? I've been trying to find one I can stuff into my Palm Pilot or laptop.

LOL.

You will not be able to download it, unless you 'copy' a screen shot one at a time into your hard drive.

But you can look at the NEC on line at NFPA.org.

You can also buy a CD-ROM of the NEC but even that has tough restrictions about multiple installations.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Is the code book the first thing a young apprentice or helper needs to learn ( they should be working under the supervision of a journeyman ). I have always thought that tool usage and job safety were a priority for the first few months. Then basic electrical theory, after that then code and drawings.

No one was born an electrician and they are not going to become one overnight. There are many things to learn other than code. By the time they need a code book they should be able to afford one.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
petersonra said:
There are very, very few banned posters here.
Is 39 a "very very small" number? I don't know how that stacks up against other discussion forums.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
growler said:
Is the code book the first thing a young apprentice or helper needs to learn ( they should be working under the supervision of a journeyman ).

IMO yes, they should buy a code book as soon as the decision is made to become an electrician.

Will they be making code decisions at that point ? No

But as a journeyman training new guys I often ask them to find an answer in the NEC.

IMO learning the book is as important as learning how to go get coffee for 25 and how to use a hack saw without cutting your thumb. ;)

Also in my area becoming a licensed electrician requires 600 hours of school time in addition to the 8000 hours in the field so they better darn well have a code book for school.

As far as costs the required schooling is much more money than any code book.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
allenwayne said:
As far as being a budget buster,you have to understand that we have guys that have 2 maybe 3 kids and now have gotten into the trade some as young as 20 years old and are making $8 /hr to start.$70.00 means that they might have to have the kids give up the habit of eating for a week or two.This is Florida after all electricians make less than many of the trades here.

If they are 20 with two or three kids that just proves the point that their priorities are all messed up.

I bet very few of these guys are making a choice between food and code books.

Whatever excuse you want to give I have heard them from the guys that work up here.

Why even make them show up as that costs them gas money?
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
iwire said:
LOL.

You will not be able to download it, unless you 'copy' a screen shot one at a time into your hard drive.

But you can look at the NEC on line at NFPA.org.

Where? I've been all over the website. Do I have to send them my $135 first?

You can also buy a CD-ROM of the NEC but even that has tough restrictions about multiple installations.

Oh, that's fine -- I just want to put it either on my laptop or Palm Pilot, whichever holds it in the smallest amount of space.
 

dsteves

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, WI
iwire said:
LOL.
...

You can also buy a CD-ROM of the NEC but even that has tough restrictions about multiple installations.

Yep, and you can't print from the CD-ROM, either. There appears to be a lock on the pdf file preventing you from selecting "print" from the menu...

growler said:
There are many things to learn other than code. By the time they need a code book they should be able to afford one.

I don't remember being schooled on anything wherein the textbook was presented at the end of the class...

Pardon me for the multiple edits - it seems my fingers are increasing in girth and decreasing in accuracy.

Dan
 
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bmac71

Member
iwire said:
If they are 20 with two or three kids that just proves the point that their priorities are all messed up.

I bet very few of these guys are making a choice between food and code books.

Whatever excuse you want to give I have heard them from the guys that work up here.

Why even make them show up as that costs them gas money?


I lived in a rural area for a long time and saw people make choices between food and new work boots, safety glasses etc. I don't know how anyone can judge someone even if they have 2-3 kids at 20. Mistakes, wrong priorities, none of my business. If they are willing to learn a trade to help themselves now, I am willing to help. I don't care how they got in their situation. I have made mistakes and had help. I think we all have.

This is why I say this: I worked in the coal mines for 6 yrs before going back to school. I knew a good worker that wanted to work in the mine. He was able to get hired, but he had to provide, hard hat, boots gloves and safety glasses, these were not provided. He could not afford these items and would have had to continue not working. He did not have money for gas, but if he did nto get this job he never would have. I bought his hard hat, boots, safety glasses and gloves so he could work. I never asked for anything in return, except that he has a chance to earn a good living and for him not to do anything to mess it up. He got on track and is living good now.

I am no martar and want no pat on the back, but if noone is willing to help, then the individual is not going to learn or work.
 

muskiedog

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Here you go. Free sight

Here you go. Free sight

http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/

I think getting clarification is the way to go.

But I have not seen such thin skins.I worked for some real A**'s but I still learned a lot and eventually they understand that you are there to learn from them. Ask the questions take the heat and learn.

Yes there is s dumb question it happened in my scuba class. A guy asked if he would get lead poisoning from the lead weights on his belt.

Answer: only if you put them in your month.

Ha HA
 

bmac71

Member
With that said, the reason I am here is to learn from all the experienced individuals here. I do not care if you have been in the trade 30yrs or 30 days or if you are a licensed electrician or professional engineer. I am willing to get assistance from anyone on here.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
bmac71 said:
I am no martar and want no pat on the back, but if noone is willing to help, then the individual is not going to learn or work.

Who said anything about not wanting to help?

But if someone has a 40 hour a week job than I expect them to help themselves and buy the things necessary for the trade they have chosen.

Sure, out of a large number of new guys maybe a few have real hardships that they did not put themselves in.

However I work for a very large EC and I get the 'pleasure' of working with many new guys.

The large majority that say they can't afford tools, or boots, or code book have no trouble buying drugs, alcohol, expensive rims, tires, TV screens for their car or the latests and greatest full featured cell phone and the bill that comes with it.

If I really thought someones kid was going hungry I would help.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
muskiedog said:
http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/

I think getting clarification is the way to go.

Thanks. I think the answer is "Give them my $135 first". The envelope is stuck in my purse at the moment. Perhaps I'll use the on-line signer-upper form.

Yes there is s dumb question it happened in my scuba class. A guy asked if he would get lead poisoning from the lead weights on his belt.

Answer: only if you put them in your month.

Ha HA

Heh. I had a dive partner years ago who narc'd on a dive. He was so cavalier about it that I've not dove with him since. I'm a certified rescue diver, but that doesn't mean I want to rescue my partner ...

On the subject of code, etc., there was a guy in New Orleans who decided he wanted to learn the trade. He had zero experience -- none, didn't know Romex from a Rolodex. So, this EC suggests he go get an apprentice license, etc. and start working for real. Nope, couldn't be bothered. I don't know what an apprentice card costs in New Orleans, but they are a lot less than a code book. So much for priorities. When I went back a month later he'd long since moved on. And thing is, for someone in New Orleans with the desire to learn, commitment, etc., it's a field that's laden with future potential. My guess is that he was sick of being in mold-filled houses and thought he'd just get a (paying) job, no problem.
 

bmac71

Member
If someone is buying rims, cell phone, big screen tv etc, that is a different story all together. I agree priorities are wrong. I would not offer to help with tools, code book etc either.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
tallgirl said:
Thanks. I think the answer is "Give them my $135 first". The envelope is stuck in my purse at the moment. Perhaps I'll use the on-line signer-upper form.

You can view the NEC without any cost, they don't make it easy but it is possible.

I think Allen put up a good link for it.
 

muskiedog

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Needy

Needy

A work for a County in Minnesota. It is amazing how many people come to the trough with a nice car, cell phone, cable or sattelite tv asking for finicial help. But they do not want to give up any of the wants to have the needs.

I think our priorities get screwed up. I have been dirt poor and by working hard, showing up on time, I have advanced beyond individual that we brighter and well off.

I would and do help anyone we needs it.

I think OSHA requires the employer to purches safety equipment. But I don't alway think I know what I think.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
bmac71 said:
If someone is buying rims, cell phone, big screen tv etc, that is a different story all together. I agree priorities are wrong. I would not offer to help with tools, code book etc either.

And I will agree every situation should be evaluated separately.:)

Unfortunately we have lost a number of promising apprentices to crack habits.
 

bmac71

Member
Unfortunately we have lost a number of promising apprentices to crack habits.[/QUOTE]

I understand this all too well also, I have seen this too much.
 
Wow!! I go away for a day and look at the responses... I am glad that I sparked alittle fuss here, as you all know, once in a while I like to "stir the post"


The thread was the one on equipment grounding.

One of the classes I teach is a test prep class. The average student in the class has about 15 or so years in the industry. When they start the class they usually think they are "reviewing" to prep for the test. What they usually find out is how some of the info and methods they have learned are not correct at all. Some of them are humbled by the experience, and thankfully I am able to keep up a pretty good relationship with them after class.

When going through the info and helping them along, I do not make little of the mistakes they have made and the frustration they are feeling going through the class. I have learned myself that the best way to handle this (for the student and for me) is to have PATIENCE!!!!!!, and then a little more PATIENCE!!!

I have myself asked questions on this forum that I should probably know the answer to. I do not so I ask. That is the premise of the forum.

If we have such a concern about a DIYer posting, I think we should respond like the law says "innocent until proven guilty".

As far as to the persons personal situation, we should tread very ligthly there. There are many reasons a new, young, poorly paid apprentice may not be able to afford a code book, and we definitely should not judge that. As they pass through the years in our industry, that may be a different story.
Another part of the puzzle as to why they may not have the book or view it online is the lack of input the person(s) employing them tells them. How many people outside of this forum may even know that the NEC is online for viewing???

It all boils down to... lets give those who are not experts, but are in the industry, a break!


One of the posters mentioned that sometimes it is hard to judge when reading the post, the posters sentiment.... I agree with that 100%.


I am adding - I am not taking this out on the moderators, I think that they do a good job. I am just thinking out loud.
 
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