hot tub equipotential

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don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
"Do Not Use Red Wirenuts For Grounding and Bonding Purposes."
We went through this a few years ago and UL backed down...are they at it again? Think about it, if the red wire nut can't carry the fault current when connected to an EGC, how does the fault current get to the EGC? It gets there via the ungrounded conductors that are connected with red wirenuts. If they are not suitable for EGC connections, they are also not suitable for circuit conductor connection. This all marketing via code and standard rules.
Don
 

volt102

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
That's what I was thinking, along with many others. It wasn't UL, its CMP-5

5-84 Log #3365 NEC-P05 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(250.8)
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Paul Dobrowsky, Holley, NY
Recommendation: Revise text to read:
250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
ETC.........
Panel Statement: The panel action on this proposal intends to incorporate
acceptable concepts included in other proposals on this section. The panel also
incorporated language from Comment 5-40 (log #2137) of the 2004 Report on
Comments, which is Proposal 5-78 in this Report on Proposals.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
____________________________________________________________

From the draft

250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment
[ROP 5?84].
(A) Permitted Methods. Grounding conductors and bonding
jumpers shall be connected by one of the following
means:
(1) Listed pressure connectors
(2) Terminal bars
(3) Pressure connectors listed as grounding and bonding
equipment
(4) Exothermic welding process
(5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than
two threads or are secured with a nut
(6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less
than two threads in the enclosure
(7) Connections that are part of a listed assembly
(8) Other listed means [ROP 5?84]

The other opinion is that if the ungrounded conductors carry the fault current, a failed connection will be know to the user (ie. light doesn't work, stove doesn't work, etc).
Now, if the failure occurs in the connection on the grounding side, and the breaker has just been simply reset, the untrained user will have know way of knowing what just has taken place.

BTW, I have not looked at the difference of the UL testing between the two different standards. But I will....:D

Jim
New Hampshire
 

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
volt102 said:
The other opinion is that if the ungrounded conductors carry the fault current, a failed connection will be know to the user (ie. light doesn't work, stove doesn't work, etc).
Now, if the failure occurs in the connection on the grounding side, and the breaker has just been simply reset, the untrained user will have know way of knowing what just has taken place.

My head hurts even thinking about this.

Now the concept will be green wire nuts will be 'tougher' and other color wire nuts will become some sort of fusible link.

I know your just passing the word Jim but this is really out there to me.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The copy of the draft does not limit you to the use of green wire nuts. You are permitted to use any of the 8 connection methods. Number 1 is a listed pressure connector...that is a standard wire nut. As long as that wording is in the code, nothing that UL says will force the use of only green wirenuts for grounding and bonding connections.
Don
 

volt102

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
don_resqcapt19 said:
The copy of the draft does not limit you to the use of green wire nuts. You are permitted to use any of the 8 connection methods. Number 1 is a listed pressure connector...that is a standard wire nut. As long as that wording is in the code, nothing that UL says will force the use of only green wirenuts for grounding and bonding connections.
Don

Yes, you are right, but check out the original proposal compared to the cmp's action, the original wanted it to be UL 467 approved.

I will not be surprised if during the commit stage that the issue rises again.

Jim
New Hampshire
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
There are a large number of contractors in my area that crimp their grounding wires. . They use wirenuts on everything else but they crimp the grounds, I believe the main reason is the space savings of a crimp.

David
 
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