Fire started where.....?

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SEC03

New member
We were recently notified that a receptacle that had been installed in a storage room by one of our electricians could have been the cause of a small fire. The receptacle was a dedicated 20 A 120V circuit located 5' from a 120/240 v SP loadcenter. There were no staples (fished in) and no other junctions. We do not stab any devices, so the wires were tightly secured under the screws. We did learn that the GC and other subs were using this recept occasionally for trim out tasks, however the GC was adamant that nothing was left plugged in to the receptacle on the night of the fire. The receptacle had been installed and used periodically for over a month. The fire started at approx 2 AM. I spoke with the fire investigator and he basically stated that the only thing in the area of the origin of the fire (as they determined) was this receptacle. The strangest thing about this entire story was three or four different residents in the subdivision called in to the Utility Company complaining about there lights flickering around 8-9 PM that night prior to the fire. Any ideas?
 

e57

Senior Member
SEC03 said:
The strangest thing about this entire story was three or four different residents in the subdivision called in to the Utility Company complaining about there lights flickering around 8-9 PM that night prior to the fire. Any ideas?

~however the GC was adamant that nothing was left plugged in to the receptacle on the night of the fire.

You might never know.... But a high/low voltage event with something plugged in could have damaged the circuit, but it would need a load to do so. And/or damaged insulation could arc and cause the fire, even possibly due to the above mentioned event. But either way it does sound fishy without a load connected. Or... The fire dept is just tacking on the catch all electrical fire...
 

bikeindy

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis IN
There must have been a load on that receptacle for a fire to start unless there was arcing due to poor installation or a defective device. you say you trust the install so what else was there?
 

Bob NH

Senior Member
Those fire guys should be asked what their theory is about how a receptacle with no load could cause a fire. I'll bet that if you gave them 100 outlets connected to properly sized circuit breakers they could not find a way to start a fire with one of them that was in any way traceable to the receptacle, its wiring, or the installation.

It is far more likely that someone left a work light plugged in with some trash on or around it.
 

JohnConnolly

Senior Member
Location
Phoenix AZ
AGGGH....that would drive me insane!

I would want to be first on scene or at least be able to look at the scene before anyone repaired/ cleaned up anything. You could tell a LOT just by looking at the receptical.

Residential? Commercial?

More details please. Type of wire, box, wall???


In the right situation I can see it.

Romex, metal box, long screw, plywood or some other kindling??? Just enough contact to heat up the screw without tripping the breaker until too late???
 

masterinbama

Senior Member
the wharehouse where I stored most of my seldom used equipment burned 6 months ago.Got a call from a friend that night.When I arrived at the scene the fire was still fully involved.After the fire was out the fire marshall declared it (on the local news no less)electrical in nature.When I heard this I had to ask how could it be electrical when I had personally had the electric cut off 4 weeeks earlier due to the known hazards in this 60 year old building.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
masterinbama said:
.....When I heard this I had to ask how could it be electrical when I had personally had the electric cut off 4 weeeks earlier due to the known hazards in this 60 year old building.

I wish I could have been there to see his/her face when you told them that!
 
I am career firefighter and a certified fire investigator (besides be a lisc. electrician). I would bet your insurance agency will send out an investigator and they will collect the evidence and send it to a lab. Under the microscope will determine if it was the cause or not, based on how the metal melted. Dont worry about too much, the insurance companies are going to not pay out anything they dont have to, and the only way they dont have to is to PROVE they are not liable.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
fire

fire

no disregard to scott, but I had a similar situation as masterinbama. Back when I did residential work, a house fire was ruled "started by electrical" although there was no service connected. We used to smile at news reports which stated "the cause was most likely electrical, as no other cause could be determined".
 

wolfman56

Senior Member
I know a woman that lived in a small house with her daughter, it was less than a year old. During the holidays, she had put a candle on a wood table in the kitchen area, without a proper candle holder. She thought to blow it out when it got low. Her daughter called to get a ride home, and on the way home she got sidtracked by shopping, was gone for hours, and forgot the candle.

The house had a very bad fire. The fire department could tell the fire started in the area near the kitchen table. She was afraid to say anything about the candle because of the fear the insurance might refuse coverage.

The local fire chief ruled it an electrical fire! The insurance company thus hired an expert investigative company from out of state to come in and verify the ruling. You guessed it they confirmed an electrical fire! The contractor got sued and was put out of business! Because the insurance company sued the contractor, she became afraid that she would get sued if the truth were told. She has never told what really happend.

This and the prior posts confirms to me, electricians are the scapegoat when they can't find what reallystarted it.

Rick
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Even some of the fire investigation text books that have been used in the recent past have incorrect information leading to more fires being called electrical than really are. One such text says that if there are little "balls" of copper on the ends of any of the wires in the fire area that indicates an electrical cause. Those "balls" are formed under short circuit conditions, but do not indicate that the short was the cause of the fire. The heat of the fire that was of another cause can also cause the short circuit. In a lab you can tell the difference, but many in the fire service were trained to look for this "evidence" in the area of the origin and call the fire electrical if that "evidence" was found. There is the same issue with a lot of the information in the arson texts...
Very few fires are really investigated by a fully trained and experienced investigator. In many cases the first due in company officer is charged with this task and the NIFRS reporting system discourages entering "unknown" as a cause. In many areas there is a "when in doubt, it is electrical" mentality on the part of the investigator.
Don
 
So many people do not understand electricity and are afraid of it that by saying "it was electrical in nature" gets a lot of head nodding in agreement. That goes over better than "it was plumbing in nature".

I have seen a few over the years that have been clearly, to me at least, accelerant started that have been ruled electrical.
 

dab

Senior Member
Location
Gasquet, CA
first of all let me say that i am a volunteer firefighter in my community. i think that as with all other professions there are those who really know what is going on and there are those who think they know what is going on. sometimes just for expediency events are written off as quickly possible so life goes on. just look at your inspectors of any other agency and you will see that health and safety issues can be overlooked because it is 4:30 p.m. on a friday and a failing report might mean going back and typing a report on the problem.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Well, I hate to admit this but 2 house that I wired about 25 & 15 years years ago burnt to the ground this year. Fortunately both homeowners admitted their negligence so I was spared the lawsuits. I am actually going to wire one of them when it is framed up again. The other is not going to get built.

Odd story on that one---Wonderful people. When I first moved here they had a house built and the day before they were to move in the house burnt to the ground. They thought it was spontaneous combustion of linseed oil rags. So I wired their new home and now 25 years later it is burnt to the ground again. They decided not to build on that lot again.

Many fires are called electrical fires if the HO plugs in a heater and sets the bedsheets on fire. If a HO piles boxes next to a baseboard heater and they catch fire--guess what-- electrical fire. They should have a category for stupid Tenants or HO
 

emahler

Senior Member
was the building under renovations? any floor guys removing linoleum flooring with a torch?

that happened to us about 8 yrs ago. We had just finished wiring an apartment. Got a call one night to get down there, there was a fire and the fire inspector says it's electrical.

get there, the fire inspector takes me to an outlet and says "here is where is started. see the v pattern?"

I take the inspector to the electrical panel and show him that there are no circuit breakers...therefore no power...find another scapegoat.

Turns out the flooring company was in there that day with a torch to tear up old linoleum. A piece of linoleum got under the sheetrock wall (there was not floor molding installed yet) and smoldered all day. Until it burst into flames. It just happened to be right under an outlet.
 
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