What did I miss?

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Okay, here is the scenario. I ran a line for an above ground pool motor the other day, I brought the feed up into a metal FS box next to the pump motor, with a twist lock recptacle, fed from a ground fault recptacle nearby. When I originally looked at the job, I was looking to see what needed to be bonded to the pump motor. All the pool supports were made of fiberglass, the pool ladder is fiberglass, there was no other metal in the vicinity with the exception of the actual pool wall, which seemed to have some sort of plastic coating on it. I got a call from the home owner today who told me the inspection failed, the bonding was inadequate. I thought about it for a while, It must have been the pool wall, but how do you attach a lug to the wall of a pool without putting a hole in the pool. Then it hit me. I used a ground rod with a threaded connector specific for the purpose of attaching to a box for support (I can't remember their name right now). It was threaded into the rear hub of the FS box. Now I grounded the FS box with the ground wire from the feed, wrapping the bare copper around the ground screw and then taking it unbroken to the ground screw on the recptacle. Since the box and recptacle are grounded, and the box connector is threaded to the box and attached directly to the sunken rod, and the motor is plugged into the twist lock thereby taking that same ground into the motor, I thought it should all be at the same potential. Should I also have taken a #8 from the motor lug to the ground rod support. I can't think of anything else I missed. Any advice would be appreciated.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
I'd rather think they want you to bond those metal pool walls somehow. Best of luck with that. It may help you that there's normally a metal track along the bottom, slightly buried normally, that you should be able to drill and tap with no problem. There's normally a generous berm of sand inside the pool, up against the bottom of the wall, so that the liner doesn't sit square against the bottom. Just an idea. Either that, or tell the HO that the pool guy didn't put a lug on for you before he erected the pool like he should have. :D
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I will be calling the inspector to get his take on things. Trevor, my box was pretty much right at five feet, the motor was so close and located right near the walking space from their deck to their pool placing it any place else would have presented a tripping hazard. I would have preferred it to be 180 degrees from where it was. Marc, good thinking,if all else fails, blame the other guy. :D
 

inspector23

Senior Member
Location
Temecula, CA
deepthreat said:
Okay, here is the scenario. I ran a line for an above ground pool motor the other day, I brought the feed up into a metal FS box next to the pump motor, with a twist lock recptacle, fed from a ground fault recptacle nearby. .


Look at 680.21(A) (1) - It begins with " the branch circuits". Defiinition for branch circuit states it is from the final overcurrent protection device to the outlets. GFCI is not a overcurrent protection device. It also states an "insulated" copper equipment grounding conductor for the branch circuit.
Additionally, it must not be smaller than #12.

Sooooooo...... The question is - do you have an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor from the final overcurrent protection device to the outlets not smaller than # 12???

Finally, look at 680.21(A) (5) for the correct size of the EGC from the motor cord. Perhaps it is mis-sized (doubtful, but possible).
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Is this a permanent or storable pool? Does it hold more than 42 inches of water before overflowing?

If it fits the definition of a storable pool then Part III of 680 will apply and there is no need to bond anything found in Part III.

The branch circuit supplying the storable pool is not required to have an insulated equipment grounding conductor nor is the equipment grounding conductor required to be a #12.

If this is a storable pool the only requirements for the installation will be found in Part I and Part III of 680.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
inspector23 said:
Look at 680.21(A) (1) - It also states an "insulated" copper equipment grounding conductor for the branch circuit.
Additionally, it must not be smaller than #12.

You may have hit on the exact problem in this case, but there are exceptions to this rule.
If it is a one family dwelling then a non insulated EGC is allowed when run in the interior of buildings. art. 680.21(A)(4).

deepthreat said:
Now I grounded the FS box with the ground wire from the feed, wrapping the bare copper around the ground screw and then taking it unbroken to the ground screw on the recptacle.

The op clearly states that he has an bare EGC at the FS box so I assume the wiring leaves the building because of the installation of the FS Box

Here's where it gets complicated IMUO--- I owe Celtic $.25
Art.680.21(B) says that any method of wiring in Chapter 3 that is suitable for the location is acceptable if this pump is double insulated. Does this mean UF is Okay outside the building????? I think this is a bit unclear, however, UF is suitable for outdoor or underground use so I think it may be allowed .....Note--- I would use pvc with an insulated ground.

The #8 copper bonding used for the equipotential bonding should be connected to the ground lug on the pool motor unless the pump motor is double insulated --art.680.26(B)(4). It also states that the #8 must still be run to the area of the pump for future use on a replacement motor. If it is not used on the double insulated motor then it is to be terminated with the EGC. In this case, the EGC, I believe, needs to be insulated ( art. 680.21(B)--last sentence). I assume there is a #8 somewhere-- pool decking steel????
But maybe this is an above ground pool, as Mike Whit has proposed, with no bonding grid.

Am I jerking myself around here???? or does this make sense?
 

LawnGuyLandSparky

Senior Member
deepthreat said:
Okay, here is the scenario. I ran a line for an above ground pool motor the other day, I brought the feed up into a metal FS box next to the pump motor, with a twist lock recptacle, fed from a ground fault recptacle nearby.

Are you feeding the pump motor with the same circuit as the required convenience receptacle?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
deepthreat said:
Okay, here is the scenario. I ran a line for an above ground pool motor the other day,

Again if this a portable pool nothing in Part II (608.20 through 680.27) will apply.

Also if it is a portable pool it can be supplied from a general purpose receptacle.
 
Wow, I really started something here, this is terrific, thanks for all the input guys. First let me clear things up. I ran a 20 amp branch circut through the basement using romex into a ground fault recptacle mounted just inside the basement wall, instructing the homeowner as to it's use. From there I transitioned to UF, came through to the outside underneath the deck and then dropped into a pvc sleeve for the six foot of underground distance from the deck into the FS box. I figured the UF counted as an insulated ground. The problem arose not so much with the installation on the recptacle as with the bonding. To allay jwelectric's concern as to it being storable, it is a full size pool some 60 inches deep. The issue was the pool support system was completely made of fiber resin, there was no metal to attach to. No metal ring at the bottom as Marc mentioned earlier, but the walls of the pool were metal and that is what the inspector had problems with. Following calls to both the inspector (who had issues with pool installers lack of concern or cooperation) and the pool manufacterer (who said an electrician should have been present at the time of installation to access the connecting rib of the pool wall and place the lug on one of the connector bolts that were now hidden behind one of the fiber resin columns, their suggestion was to let some water out of the pool, push in the side walls being careful not to crease the wall or loosen the liner access the bolts and install the lug that way, but they didn't recommed I do that):confused: Long story longer, I managed to access one of those connecting bolts, get the lug on (using the double index finger method, talk about building a ship in a bottle) and get my #8 to the pump motor. Both homeowner and inspector happy, boss bit my a$$ for taking so long to bond a pool. All in all a lovely summers day. :rolleyes:
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
That's gret but it still sounds to me that the UF is not legal. Art. 680.21(A)(1) does not allow UF as a wiring method outside the building in the case you presented. Yes the egc must be insulated-- I would argue UF having an insulated EGC, but the cable is not an approved method anyway.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Dennis Alwon said:
That's gret but it still sounds to me that the UF is not legal. Art. 680.21(A)(1) does not allow UF as a wiring method outside the building in the case you presented. Yes the egc must be insulated-- I would argue UF having an insulated EGC, but the cable is not an approved method anyway.

If this pool is 60 inches deep then Dennis is correct and any and all metal within five feet of the pool requires bonding.
 
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