Old camp... safety advice

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tallguy

Senior Member
Warning... LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG

First, in the interests of full disclosure, I'll explain my situation. My circumstances are quite similar to those of tallgirl (hence my choice of handle!):
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=80406

I help people who otherwise are not able to get help... simple as that. Everything I do is with the blessing of the AHJ, when possible under the supervision of a retired master (with current license).

On to the project in question...

I was on a 4 day stint to replace & level a horribly degraded kitchen floor (no foundation under the house -- the sill is right on dirt). This is at a Christian camp with dozens of buildings, with the house in question built in the early part of the century -- I'm guessing 1920's. Electrification appears to have been done in the 1950s as near as I can tell, with additional work done in mid-90s by local vo/tech students.

Service is 60A 240v with two pulls (main & range) and 4 fuses. The range in the house is gas, so the range pull is not used... hence we have 30A 240v service in the house. So far so good.

I discovered the following:

1) Only two receptacles in kitchen, one two-prong, and one 30A twist lock -- neither had voltage.

2) All devices in or fed through the kitchen -- refrigerator, washer, gas stove, gas dryer, coffee pot, toaster, mixer, blender, luminaire, heat tape for pipes, R/V hookup (I kid you not), and chicken coop heat lamps -- were all running through piggybacked power strips plugged into receptacles in the living room.

3) Entire house was routed through 10/3 to an FPE fuse box, 1950s vintage, maybe 1960s at latest. A grand total of four screws on the neutral bar. Grounds tied in here as well (of course), many wires under each screw, including one neutral which was not secured at all -- just laying up against the head of the screw. Amazing.

4) All of fuses were overfused @ 30A. I didn't do a comprehensive survey, as it would require tearing the house down, but wire was mostly #14. The microwave had a dedicated circuit and another of the fuses was unused, so the rest of the house was on only two (2) fuses. It appears to be just dumb luck that the two fuses in question were not on the same phase!

5) There were at least two "minor" electrical fires that the HO knew of within the past five years. Near as I could tell these were of the pop/flash/oops "let's not do that again" variety. I believe these are what led to the non-working outlet(s) and 30A fuses.

6) The feed to the chicken coop & R/V hookup is a 50' extension cord buried under the driveway.

7) No GFCIs in entire house, with exception of one in the bathroom which was dangling outside of a handy box which itself was dangling out of the wall.

8) I could find no grounding rod(s)

9) The vo/tech kids (one can tell due to vintage of the wire) seemed to think it was a bright idea to bend back the ground wire 180 degrees to poke out through the cable clamp, rather hooking through to the 10/3 in the fuse box. Maybe they figured there was no room on the neutral bar anyway? Anyone else seen this before?

The HO and wife are very nice folks, not idiots, but they are stuck with this place and they don't have anything in terms of resources, so they are making do. Basically, the wife says they don't run any two things at once other than lighting and A/C in the summer.

So.... I set about doing what I could in the time alotted to deal with the most aggregious violations and hazards. In no particular order:

1) Got rid of those 30A fuses, replaced with 15A. I was unable to convert to S-type. It's tough when Wal-Mart is the local supply house!

2) Ran separate #14 cables to four locations in kitchen: counter area (toaster, etc.), dryer/heat tape, washer/stove, and outdoor outlets. The counter area is connected to the microwave fuse, while the other three are connected to the previously unused fuse. Certainly this is far from ideal, but each has it's own feed, so they can be easily separated when upgrading to breakers. Each feed is protected by its own GFCI as well. At the very least, this will mean that many of these devices will be able to run concurrently, and safely.

3) The buried extension cord was removed and replaced with #14 UF-B, with red dot CodeKeepers on either side of the driveway.

4) Hanging GFCI in bathroom was fixed with Madison bars.

5) Opened up the fuse box and removed all neutrals and grounds to tidy it up. The box is tucked in above the fridge, and given its location and the direction of entry for the cables, it was not feasible to use j-boxes to reduce the number of wires entering. At any rate, I opted to not isolate the grounds, as I didn't see a reasonable way to bond to the box apart from the bar. I did, however, remove all the grounds (save for the #10 feed) and wire nut them to a #12 jumper to the bar. It was the only way I could see to reasonably land everything. So now I have a #10 & #12 ground along with six or so #14/#12 neutrals under four screws. I would be quite interested to hear if anyone has a better approach given that the box itself could not be replaced at that moment.

6) Dead-ended non-working outlets. No voltage to these, but I wouldn't take any chances and complete removal was impossible.

7) I don't know what to do about the grounding rod or lack thereof... I'm hoping that I just missed it. The area is covered with a very thick blanket of pine needles that is quite spongy, so the rod and wire could be several inches down for all I know. There was a jumper from the telco that went down into the morass a couple feet from the house, but I couldn't get anywhere with it. Any tricks for ferreting out a ground rod/wire?

After all that context, my question is "now what"? If it were my house, I'd start by upgrading to 100A service, but I don't know how to evaluate the drop from the street (actually, the camp pole) to see if this is feasible.

I see no issue with the 60A service in and of itself, although I didn't do an according to Hoyle calculation. I did do a back of the envelope calculation of their devices that draw significant amperage (basically everything other than the lights) and it only added up to 50A. Theoretically, I'd love to just replace that 30A fuse box with a 30A breaker panel, then run 10/3 from the range pull to another 30A breaker panel, but AFAIK they only make 30A panels for boats and such though.

Running #6 from the attic down to a new 60A subpanel (can I even get a new 60A panel?) in a new location, and then running conduit from the existing FPE to the new panel strikes me as a giant pain, and expensive.

Incidentally, until recently, there was no meter on the house as the camp pays the entire utility bill... the HO is charged a flat fee for electricity, and wanted to know his actual consumption. A "friend" installed a meter for them, inside, behind a wood panel so the dome sticks out about an inch. So, a service disconnect is impossible without removing a wall or calling the POCO.

Turns out the "friend" is also the AHJ... He is aware of the conditions within the house and has taken a "don't ask, don't tell" stance, which I'm not at all thrilled with. At least I feel better for having addressed the most hair-raising issues as quickly as I could.

Thoughts on options moving forward?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
tallguy said:
Service is 60A 240v with two pulls (main & range) and 4 fuses. The range in the house is gas, so the range pull is not used... hence we have 30A 240v service in the house.
Actually, its not 30, it is 60. You have 14.4 kW for the customer to utilize.
tallguy said:
seemed to think it was a bright idea to bend back the ground wire 180 degrees to poke out through the cable clamp,
I've run into this, and variations, over the years. You're right, it'll require correcting.
tallguy said:
I was unable to convert to S-type.
Bring the S-types when you return.
tallguy said:
I would be quite interested to hear if anyone has a better approach given that the box itself could not be replaced at that moment.
What you need is branch circuit origin space.

A classic 2-pull 4-plug fuse box has lugs for setting a subpanel. Put in a circuit breaker subpanel. Change the "counter area" and "washer/stove" #14 branch circuits to the required 20 amp branch circuits. (Here I am assuming that "washer" is the laundry - the laundry must be by itself).
tallguy said:
Any tricks for ferreting out a ground rod/wire?
Given the age of the FPE fuse center, you're probably looking for the wrong thing. Look, instead, for a bond to the water service.
tallguy said:
my question is "now what"?
Given the detail you've provided, which has been good, it's clear that the design of the changes should be arrived at after a bit of collaboration. Collaborate with the "retired master" on the load calculation for the house. It's not so mysterious, and you might be overthinking it a bit. NEC article 220 holds the key.
 

tallguy

Senior Member
al hildenbrand said:
Actually, its not 30, it is 60. You have 14.4 kW for the customer to utilize.

I should have been more clear perhaps... There is 30A 240v (7.2kva) effectively, as the FPE only gets 30A, the rest is on the "range" pull and is not available until such time as an additional subpanel is added. Or am I missing something?

al hildenbrand said:
What you need is branch circuit origin space.

A classic 2-pull 4-plug fuse box has lugs for setting a subpanel. Put in a circuit breaker subpanel.

Unfortunately I did not get a look at it as it too (like the meter) is set inside the wall, with only the door clearing the cutout. Why ever did they not surface mount this thing?!? Grrrrrrrrr... Does anyone have a pic of the internals?

OK, but where do I find a circuit panel that is so small? Or, do I go with a 100A panel and rely on the pair of 30A fuses to provide overcurrent protection? That just doesn't sound right reflexively.

al hildenbrand said:
Change the "counter area" and "washer/stove" #14 branch circuits to the required 20 amp branch circuits. (Here I am assuming that "washer" is the laundry - the laundry must be by itself).

Correct on the "washer". Given the circumstances, it was a matter of making it better as quickly as possible rather than trying to bring it up to code fully, particularly given that dedicated circuits were literally impossible. Everything needs to be re-arranged anyway somehow... current left to right configuration is thus: washer, stove, sink, dryer! None of these sits flush with the wall or one another due to various plumbing Rube Goldbergs behind them. After permanent homes are found for the devices and a breaker panel is installed, dedicated circuits can be designated. FWIW, the counter was brought up to 20A, as its upstream feed was #12 already.

al hildenbrand said:
Given the age of the FPE fuse center, you're probably looking for the wrong thing. Look, instead, for a bond to the water service.

Good point. I didn't see one anywhere near the meter or the hot water heater (also shoehorned into the kitchen), but I'll look again next time I am there. The service entrance is on the other side of the house, nowhere near a water pipe -- I'm assuming there isn't a bond hidden behind a wall somewhere.

al hildenbrand said:
Given the detail you've provided, which has been good, it's clear that the design of the changes should be arrived at after a bit of collaboration. Collaborate with the "retired master" on the load calculation for the house. It's not so mysterious, and you might be overthinking it a bit. NEC article 220 holds the key.

Load calculation is not so intimidating, "Wiring Simplified" does a nice job with that. It's the AHJ which has me the most concerned. If he takes a lackadaisical approach, it puts me in the difficult position of either leaving it as is or proceeding with less oversight than should be there. Neither is good for the HO. Discussing with AHJ is the next step, clearly.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
tallguy said:
Or am I missing something?
Ya, I think you might be. Look at the bus diagram on the cover, the next time you are there, and you'll see, I expect, that there are two 30 A max fuses on one 60 A Main.
tallguy said:
where do I find a circuit panel that is so small?
The NEC only limits you from over fusing.
tallguy said:
I'm assuming there isn't a bond hidden behind a wall somewhere.
You can't assume that. Look inside the 60 Amp FPE fuse center for the other end of the Grounding Electrode Conductor.
tallguy said:
It's the AHJ which has me the most concerned. If he takes a lackadaisical approach, it puts me in the difficult position of either leaving it as is or proceeding with less oversight than should be there.
That is not an excuse for ignoring the NEC. Just do the work to the NEC.
tallguy said:
Discussing with AHJ is the next step
Normally, the inspector will remind you that it is not his/er job to design a job. Now, given the extreme conditions following Katrina, the inspector may not be this way, but I suspect his/er work day is very long. The normal design comes from a Master Electrician. The familiarity with older hardware and historic installation techniques comes with being a Master. Your questions indicate enough unfamiliarity with a classic residential fuse center (there a literally millions of these in service, still) that you will benefit from sharing this with your local Master.

It's really beyond the scope of this medium to give a "how to" as those of us on the other side of "the cloud" can't see the job site you're in. I would demand to look at the job in order to help you see what I see.

If you can't get the Master that you mentioned to come to the site, then enlist the aid of a licensed electrical contractor for a design consult.
 

busman

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Occupation
Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
tallguy said:
Warning... LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG


2) Ran separate #14 cables to four locations in kitchen: counter area (toaster, etc.), dryer/heat tape, washer/stove, and outdoor outlets. The counter area is connected to the microwave fuse, while the other three are connected to the previously unused fuse. Certainly this is far from ideal, but each has it's own feed, so they can be easily separated when upgrading to breakers. Each feed is protected by its own GFCI as well. At the very least, this will mean that many of these devices will be able to run concurrently, and safely.

Shouldn't that be #12 for the SA circuits in the kitchen?

Mark
 

tallguy

Senior Member
busman said:
Shouldn't that be #12 for the SA circuits in the kitchen?

Yes, of course. Obviously not my finest hour! At least they are now fused properly, and it will be corrected.
 

tallguy

Senior Member
al hildenbrand said:
Ya, I think you might be. Look at the bus diagram on the cover, the next time you are there, and you'll see, I expect, that there are two 30 A max fuses on one 60 A Main.

Gotcha... I found a pic of a virtually identical box, FWIW:
attachment.php


At a glance, I had assumed this to be a split bus... There was no diagram on the box in question, so I'll have to remove the wall and pop it open. Either way, there's only 30A (@ 240v = 7.2kva -- so I'm clear here) available to house today as it feeds from here to a 30A rated FPE fuse box via 10/3.

al hildenbrand said:
Normally, the inspector will remind you that it is not his/er job to design a job.

Certainly, except that in this case the inspector is both friend of the HO and (apparently) local sparky as well... We're talking major bumpkinville here -- I wouldn't be shocked to find out he is the mayor as well.:grin:

al hildenbrand said:
The normal design comes from a Master Electrician. The familiarity with older hardware and historic installation techniques comes with being a Master. Your questions indicate enough unfamiliarity with a classic residential fuse center (there a literally millions of these in service, still) that you will benefit from sharing this with your local Master.

It's really beyond the scope of this medium to give a "how to" as those of us on the other side of "the cloud" can't see the job site you're in. I would demand to look at the job in order to help you see what I see.

If you can't get the Master that you mentioned to come to the site, then enlist the aid of a licensed electrical contractor for a design consult.

Will do! Thanks very much for the input...
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
The reason you cannot find the grounding electrode is that this "Compound" was built before inspections, the phone company probally drove their own 3' ground rod for their equiptment. Since all of the buildings are feed off a common single meter service, the only grounding electrode is there more than likely. Adding more grounding electrodes at the building is strongly suggested.
 
Old service

Old service

The method of wiring you describe where the ground wire is pulled back 180 degrees and secured under the cable clamp was common for that area.. the rationale was that it made metal to metal contact with the clamp, which contacted the enclosure witha tight nut, which contedted the ground bar with a tight screw... as you can imagine, any loose connections anywhere results in no bonding for that ciircuit. as this method was usuall repeated at each junction, any one of these could fail, with loss of bonding down stream resulting. as for the size of the service and load center, pull boxes of this size were the norm for this era.. electrical needs usually consisted of one light per room and maybe one receptacle..no microwaves, etc..

Your pull box may likely have a set of main cartridge fuses, possibly 60 amp that will be marked "main lights". The other set of cartridge fuses may be marked "range" with 50 amp fuses . At the top above the main fuses are lugs which are the input for the whole box. The lugs above the range fuses are the output to the electric range if there is one.

On the bottom, between the 1st and 2nd fuses, there may be a lug. Also between the 3rd and 4th fuses. Thes are output to a sub panel. The are protected by the main fuses. The main fuses protect the whole panel, and the range fuses protect only the range lugs. If there is no electric range, this is another opportunity for a sub panel. possibly a surface mounted one with appropriate wiring methods for it. Consult your master for load calculations.

No ground rod is not a surprise.. grounding was not well understood. Drive one per NEC... bond it to the enclosure in a workman like manner.. isolated neutral kits are available for your subs...

Good luck.. god bless you for helping those who cant help themselves
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
camp

camp

tallguy...
First let me say welcome to the forum..because my other comments may not sound as welcoming.
From your post, I did not see the word "bedroom", but I did see "bath-kitchen and house" so I assume bedrooms. If so..seriously, the first thing I would check for is working smoke detectors. You mentioned earlier fires and now that you have worked on it, any future fire, i fear, will hunt you, so first let's make sure we have life safety in place.
From there, I agree, bless you for your efforts, but from some of the questions you ask, you really don't need to be delving extensively into this unless the "master" is providing on-site hands-on supervision.
All of your good intentions and the inspector's attitude don't change the fact that, IMHO, this entire building should be red-tagged until significant improvements are made.
Mr. Moderator and tall guy, if this post offends, I apolgize, but as inspectors I don't see how we can take what appears to be dangerous situation and "help" a self described apprentice proceed with work.
In over 100 posts, this is then only time I have expreseed such a view, but this situation scares me and I think advice here is contrary to the intent of the forum. If I am off base, I apologize.
 

tallguy

Senior Member
Augie... I don't think you are off base at all. I think it's important if someone is greatly concerned about a situation that they feel free to speak plainly about it.

augie47 said:
tallguy...
First let me say welcome to the forum..because my other comments may not sound as welcoming.
From your post, I did not see the word "bedroom", but I did see "bath-kitchen and house" so I assume bedrooms. If so..seriously, the first thing I would check for is working smoke detectors.

Good point. I will double check. Obviously, there are no hard-wired detectors.

augie47 said:
You mentioned earlier fires and now that you have worked on it, any future fire, i fear, will hunt you, so first let's make sure we have life safety in place.

Perhaps "fires" is a bit of a misnomer... The events were similar to Vern's "near miss of the day" (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=90198)

I'm resting OK on this because there were a number of hair raising violations/usage patterns, and I corrected those that were within my capabilties. I left it in significantly better shape than when I got there, but the rest will have to wait for now.

augie47 said:
From there, I agree, bless you for your efforts, but from some of the questions you ask, you really don't need to be delving extensively into this unless the "master" is providing on-site hands-on supervision.

Agreed! Unfortunately the master in question is retired and some distance away from the jurisdiction in question, so he's not going to be a great help. I'll need to find someone closer... Maybe I can con Bob (iwire) into some do-gooder work since he's right around the corner :smile:

augie47 said:
All of your good intentions and the inspector's attitude don't change the fact that, IMHO, this entire building should be red-tagged until significant improvements are made.

AFAIK there were no violations as of the time that the various devices were installed. What we have is a situation where there were some issues of slipshod work, but the vast majority of the issues are matters of obsolescence and modern usage grafted onto a system not designed for it. There is nothing to red tag, really (except my addition of 15A circuits in the kitchen :roll: )

augie47 said:
Mr. Moderator and tall guy, if this post offends, I apolgize, but as inspectors I don't see how we can take what appears to be dangerous situation and "help" a self described apprentice proceed with work.

Let's put it this way... I'm in no position to call this inspector on the carpet for his stance -- which is unconscionable as both a public safety professional and as a friend to the HO. I can, however, have a friendly conversation with him and ask how I can best help rectify this situation.

I haven't had that conversation yet, but I can only hope that he knows of some local resources that can help. Otherwise, if there's anyone in SE New England who is licensed in MA and doesn't mind doing a little pro bono work, please let me know. Seriously...

augie47 said:
In over 100 posts, this is then only time I have expreseed such a view, but this situation scares me and I think advice here is contrary to the intent of the forum. If I am off base, I apologize.

I'm fine with it! :cool: I knew I was in over my head, but I also have limited to no resources, which is why I decided to stick my head out on the chopping block and post here. I've felt nothing but welcomed, including by your post -- which expressed genuine concern. No worries.
 
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