old SE - new subpanel

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bar714

Member
Im an inspector. I had a contractor replace a subpanel in basement (main disc. outside at service) and reconnected to existing 3 wire SE with uninsulated neutral to the replacement panel (SE length 60' - 70'). I was wondering if anyone would concider the SE to be "existing" and OK the replacement panel? Would anyone allow the contractor to run a separate GEC from water meter to subpanel and to main outside? Or because neutral is uninsulated would it just fail on that basis?
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
It is really your call. This is a repair but really should be fixed. Would it be major problem to replase it with 4 conductors ?
If they are adding any circuits then you should tag it as it now is new.
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
First off, welcome to the forums. You'll find a lot of great folks here.

As to this install and your question, IF the panel in question is the ONLY one and the disconnect outside is only feeding that same panel, then it is NOT a subpanel and does not fall under the separate neutral/ground rules.

If it is the only panel then the neutral and ground bars should be tied together and ground rods/water system GEC needs to be present.

If however this panel is fed from another panel where neutral/grounds are bonded together then you are correct that an insulated neutral and separate grounding conductor is required.

Whoo hoo!! Post #1200!!
 
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Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
First off, welcome to the forums. You'll find a lot of great folks here.

As to this install and your question, IF the panel in question is the ONLY one and the disconnect outside is only feeding that same panel, then it is NOT a subpanel and does not fall under the separate neutral/ground rules.

If it is the only panel then the neutral and ground bars should be tied together and ground rods/water system GEC needs to be present.

If however this panel is fed from another panel where neutral/grounds are bonded together then you are correct that an insulated neutral and separate grounding conductor is required.

Whoo hoo!! Post #1200!!

He stated the main disconnect is outside, so then after the first disconnect (outside) it must seperate the grounds and neutrals as it is a sub. Question is should he grandfather this in.
 

bccodes

Member
Location
Altoona Pa
bccodes

bccodes

I agree with Jim as per 250.24(5) (B) Four wires past the outside switch and since the inside panelboard is being replaced I would have them correct it now as it is new equipment and needs to be installed as per the current standards. The outside switch becomes the service disconnect enclosure and the inside panelboard becomes a sub-panel
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Welcome to the Forum.

The question is a good one and has been discussed more than once.
The result seems to be in most cases it's "your call" and enforcement varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and often job to job.
My experience has been that most inspectors require the cable to be replaced with a 4 wire where practical.
Sometimes a situation arises where the cost of doing so is significant. In the "Code world" it should make no difference but when you have a resident living on fixed income who is faced with replacing a deteriorating fuse panel and finds they can not do so do to the extra $1500 it cost to cut sheet rock, etc to replace the cable, do you leave the dangerous situation ?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The way I see it was legal until you changed the aservice so it is the EC's job to fix it since he created the problem.
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
You should already have some sort of guidelines in place in your jurisdiction for this situation. Around here, Richmond VA have some of the most strict rules in central VA. They would allow me , if the meter stays in the same location, and the panel stays in the same location, to simply replace the panel and the cable could stay.

If either of the two locations move, then the whole works gets brought up to code.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
The key here is why it is getting changed. If it simply is old and burning up then i would call it a repair same as we would for a 2 prong receptacle. Soon as he adds another circuit then we enter the world of new.
Down side here is they could install a panel with extra spaces and next week add circuits.
This is a tough call and personally i rather see old equipment replaced. Not perfect but safer than it is now.
 

wawireguy

Senior Member
I think you are being overly picky(OP). If you have no rules that require you upgrade the service entrance conductors then I think you should grandfather this in. Is it unsafe? No. Why make the owner pay more money when what's there is just fine.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
here the state has a rule that if you just replace a panel with same rating and location then its considered as a repair, if you up size it, lets say from a 60 amp to a 100 amp then its a new install as the conductors would also have to been replaced, we see a few nice new breaker panels around here with back fed 60 amp mains for this reason, most older houses here are all gas so many would not ever use more then 40 to 60 amps anyways, think of it this way, if your cars engine went out would EPA require you to install a engine that would meet todays emission standards? wouldn't think so.

We have to be able to make repairs as long as we are not basically changing the existing rating of the original service rating or location, even if we change from fuses to a breaker panel as long as the rating hasn't changed, so this can depend upon why it was changed and what it was changed from.
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
here the state has a rule that if you just replace a panel with same rating and location then its considered as a repair, if you up size it, lets say from a 60 amp to a 100 amp then its a new install as the conductors would also have to been replaced, we see a few nice new breaker panels around here with back fed 60 amp mains for this reason, most older houses here are all gas so many would not ever use more then 40 to 60 amps anyways, think of it this way, if your cars engine went out would EPA require you to install a engine that would meet todays emission standards? wouldn't think so.

We have to be able to make repairs as long as we are not basically changing the existing rating of the original service rating or location, even if we change from fuses to a breaker panel as long as the rating hasn't changed, so this can depend upon why it was changed and what it was changed from.




I just upgraded a 100 amp service to a 200 amp service in Richmond. The meter was in the same location, the panel was in the same location. 15 feet deep in the house. No service disconnect. They still allow it to grandfather in. There needs to be guidelines in place in his jurisdiction for this. If not, he should be the first to put it in writing
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
When was it legal?
I was talking about the original install. Generally there is a seu cable that fed a main panel. When you change the service and add a main disco outside then you have changed what was code compliant to a now compliant install.

IMO, this should never be allowed simply because it was there before esp. if you make it non compliant.
 

bar714

Member
Thanks for all responses. Just to add, the panel was replaced for two reasons. First, more space was needed for extra circuits for small remodel and arc fault circuits. I've been asked to allow a GEC from C.W. line to main outside, but obviously it will not run with other feeder conductors thus grounding main and using an irreversable crimp and ground sub panel. This will insure a ground at sub panel, which it does not have now. Once again not completely to code, but better and safer. The code book never talks about "if you make it safer but not to code its ok". Thanks again for everyones input.
 

chevyx92

Senior Member
Location
VA BCH, VA
You should already have some sort of guidelines in place in your jurisdiction for this situation. Around here, Richmond VA have some of the most strict rules in central VA. They would allow me , if the meter stays in the same location, and the panel stays in the same location, to simply replace the panel and the cable could stay.

If either of the two locations move, then the whole works gets brought up to code.

Same here at the beach.
 
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