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Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Thanks Rattus. I was looking for something that told me what years were the problem. Seems like 60's, 70's and 80's are the problem breakers.
 
My thanks as well.

The Bay Area is full of Zinsco and FPE, but not as much has been written about FPE as has been about Zinsco.

I've tried advertising for service changes based on the dangerous nature of these panels, but haven't been very successful. Actually, I don't think I even recouped my advertising investment. It seems to be a "it's not causing me any problems, so why spend all that money" type of issue to homeowners.

Kind of like Alfred E. Neuman View attachment 4950 "What, me Worry?"
 

rattus

Senior Member
My thanks as well.

The Bay Area is full of Zinsco and FPE, but not as much has been written about FPE as has been about Zinsco.

Kind of like Alfred E. Neuman View attachment 4950 "What, me Worry?"

Bought a new house in 1959 equipped with Zinsco, moved after 10 years, band the house is still there.

Many people just don't overload their circuits, so the potential problem never is noticed. Now if the contacts start arcing, look out! Now if the contacts fuse together, that is like putting a penny in the fusebox. Does anyone know what the mode of failure is?

There are certain wasps that like to find a small hole, lay eggs in, and seal it with mud. Of course ants are attracted to contactors, etc. Could be.

I know an engineer whose house was wired with Al. He was so busy making a fortune that he ignored the flickering lights and let his house catch fire.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
I read you link twice including the comments that follow. There is nothing I see there that absolutely pin-points the problem, riddled with speculation and lacking facts.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
I didn't ask that question very well. I am really asking, "What goes wrong with the FPE and Zinsco breakers?" That is, what part of the breaker fails?


They simply fail to open the next time a fault or overload occurs. Sometimes it's because the contacts are welded together and cannot open, others is because the fault current is too high (they don't have a 10kaic rating).
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
Not sure about the internal problems with Zinsco/FP breakers. Though I have heard that they fail to trip properly. But neither one has a good breaker to buss connection, IMO. I'm sure all of us have seen more than our share of Zinsco/FP buss failures.
 
Not sure about the internal problems with Zinsco/FP breakers. Though I have heard that they fail to trip properly. But neither one has a good breaker to buss connection, IMO. I'm sure all of us have seen more than our share of Zinsco/FP buss failures.

Those are the most common problems, as well as the aluminum buss of the Zinsco corroding and burning in two.

Also issues with the breakers failing to trip on short circuit and overload.

Here's a link: http://www.inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco.htm
 

rattus

Senior Member
It seems they set out to make cheap breakers for the new housing industry and in the process they cut too many corners. Contacts too small, wrong material--Wrong Idea.
 

MarkyMarkNC

Senior Member
Location
Raleigh NC
Most of the Zinsco failures I have seen have been heat related - breakers welding to the busbar or the contacts welding together.

FP's plain and simple just don't trip for faults or overloads. They might as well just be a switch.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Every now and then there is some popular personality that everyone seems to love - or hate- in the extreme, well beyond whatever the merits of that person. In the popular mind, that person can do no worng (or right). I believe the same dynamic applies to the old 'FPE/Zinsco debate.'

Let's keep things in perspective, and avoid the hysterical fear-mongering practiced by some parties - folks who just might have their own ax to grind. Here are a few facts to remember:

1) The "New York Consumer Safety Commission" study that keeps circulating only found fault with some two-pole FPE breakers; the single pole breakers operated properly;

2) Despite allegations of FPE falsifying their own test data, FPE products continued to pass independent testing by UL as long as they were manufactured;

3) As recently as 2005, an article appeared in IAEI news that dfated a lot of the anti-FPE assertions;

4) Somehow the same breaker design as that of FPE continues to be manufacturered, sold, and installed in Canada - marketed by the parent firm of Square D, no less;

5) Contrary to popular myth, FPE never 'lost' it's UL listing. As far as UL is concerned, FPE just went out of business; and,

6) Even if you assume problems with FPE, there is no basis to assume similar problems with similar products - unless you wish to assrt a flaw in the basic design. Such claims have not been made of FPE or Zinsco.

Not tripping? In direct contradiction of the statements made by Square D that their breakers are 'designed to trip at 80% of the handle value," I have measured numerous of their premium QO breakers operating for several hours at 100-112% of the handle values. This is not to be critical of the product; look to the trip curves and you will see that it is the statements of the sales force that are faulty. The sad fact is that we have NO way, in the field, to 'test' a breaker. This little detail is the one thing that bedevils the 'reconditioned' market, where they 'certify' to a standard that was never intended to be applied in that manner, a standard that has been discontinued because of such mis-use.

This is not to say that I like the two -very different- makes. My point is that there is a world of difference between what I like and what is allowed.

Of greater relevance is that, since both firms are out of business, such equipment is dated. Wine may get better with age, but few other things do. Obtaining replacement parts is an issue ... and you can forget about newer versions such as GFCI and AFCI breakers.

IMO, the presence of an FPE panel suggests that there are likely problems present far more serious than the brand of panel used - and most of these other hazards will not be addressed by a service change. You know the sort: overloaded circuits, double-taps, flying splices, grounding issues, three prong receptacles on ungrounded circuits. I say: focus on those issues, so the breaker will not HAVE to trip. (Sort of like a sailor making sure that he never needs to see if the life jacket works).
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Not tripping? In direct contradiction of the statements made by Square D that their breakers are 'designed to trip at 80% of the handle value," I have measured numerous of their premium QO breakers operating for several hours at 100-112% of the handle values. This is not to be critical of the product; look to the trip curves and you will see that it is the statements of the sales force that are faulty. The sad fact is that we have NO way, in the field, to 'test' a breaker.

All breakers are designed to carry 100% current in open air at rated operating temperature. Put them into an enclosure and then they become the so called '80%' rated, but again the interior of the enclosure must be at the operating temperature of the breaker. Cool off a breaker even slightly, and the trip curve values probably need adjusting. The same issues exist with fuses in enclosures. I have seen fuses last for hours at a simple 120% loading.

FWIW, I have never seen a written statement from any manufacturer, much less Square D, that says their breakers are designed to trip at 80%.
 

charlietuna

Senior Member
Dallas Fire Rescue says FPE "MAY" burn your house down ???? What does this mean? What are their qualifications ???? Guess what -- same thing can happen with other gear too !
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...
4) Somehow the same breaker design as that of FPE continues to be manufacturered, sold, and installed in Canada - marketed by the parent firm of Square D, no less;
...
Not only is it still made and sold in Canada, they claim that the breaker to bus connection is superior to other designs. The following is on the Schneider Electric Canada website even today.
The Stab-lok circuit breaker system continues to set the industry standard for durable connections. With the Stab-lok system, the stab actually expands under load: working to increase surface contact area and pressure, automatically cooling the connection
 

stew

Senior Member
fpe

fpe

reading on in the link i see one electrician that talks about the cutler hammer retrofit guts and claims they are ul approved. NOT I have been unable to find a ul listing on these anywhere. Anyone else?
 
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