Working Clearance

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raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
Michael15956 said:
Chris,
You & Pierre do have a point there, but I was more concerned with the post that placed a disco under the headroom section, 110.26(E).

I agree that an A/C disconnect does not require the 6'6" headroom specified in 110.26(E) because a disconnect isn't specifically mention in that section.

Then there is a whole lot of viloations in the world

You are correct.:)

Again I feel that common sense must come into play in determing what items require working space. For example does a GFCI receptacle require working space clearance? It is equipment as defined in Article 100 and it requires monthly testing that can only be performed while energized. I don't think that the working space requirement was meant to apply to GFCI receptacles, but I do feel that an A/C disconnect is subject to the working space clearance requirments.

Chris
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I agree that an AC disconnect does not have to have the 36" x 30" clearance, for most of the same reasons stated, I can always turn off the breaker before I work on it. I do know that some of the other local AHJ's enforce it. I take the term "likely....while energized" literaly, as an electrician any thing you work on is "likely to be energized", but being that a disconnect has an OCPD in front of it, it does not have to be worked on while energized, where a panel on the other hand...and yes I require the proper clearances on subpanels before anyone jumps on that one.

After some of the other threads we've had I'm surprised that any of you would be even be talking about working on something that was energized. :grin:

As for the head clearance, I don't know that "I" would make a big deal out of it, but it's a good call by the inspector. The problem I see is (and it may just be here) that the POCO requirements are that the meter can be no higher than 6'3" to the center. So depending on the layout of your equipment you may have a hard time meeting both requirements.
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
I take the term "likely....while energized" literaly, as an electrician any thing you work on is "likely to be energized", but being that a disconnect has an OCPD in front of it, it does not have to be worked on while energized, where a panel on the other hand...and yes I require the proper clearances on subpanels before anyone jumps on that one.

What if a panel has an OCPD ahead of it? The fact that something can be turned off doesn't affect whether or not something might be examined while energized. As I have pointed out, the only way to test for voltage is to leave the power on. So when serviceing an A/C unit the easiest place to check for voltage is in the disconnect. This requires that the disconnect be energized.

Chris
 

Michael15956

Senior Member
Location
NE Ohio
What's evident here is words like, "Likely to be energized" are subject to interpretation. Oh well, another section of the NEC subject to interpretation.
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
Michael15956 said:
Sorry Guys,

I just can't help smiling when I see inspectors disagree with each other!:grin:

But, I'm just a lowly electrical contractor!

I disagree with inspectors all the time.:D

Chris
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Michael15956 said:
What's evident here is words like, "Likely to be energized" are subject to interpretation. Oh well, another section of the NEC subject to interpretation.

Yeah , and when is it required as opposed to desired??
 

nunoslg

Member
Working Heigth

Working Heigth

What is not shown in the picture above is the vertical band of Drivit that is above the meter and disconnect.
This band protrudes out from the wall which dictated the height
The owner requested the low profile.

True the owner can not dictate safety or the NEC.

I can say with authority that this installation has been accepted for the past 30 years that I have been in the electrical trade.
I have worked in many areas under many inspectors and this is the first I have been turned down by the height of a disconnect door.

I have talked to Sq. D who makes the disconnect and they have never had one reported as being turned down for the door being mounted under 6.6 in any state.

It would almost make this disconnect impossible or impractical to mount, if the only way to mount it by code would be to place the top of the disconnect 6.6 or higher.

The code states that the door must be able to open 90 degrees.
It doesn?t say that the head room is taken with the door of the disconnect open and that the door of the disconnect can not be mounted under 6.6.

Bottom line the inspector always wins right or wrong.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Michael15956 said:
Sorry Guys,

I just can't help smiling when I see inspectors disagree with each other!:grin:

But, I'm just a lowly electrical contractor!

and don't you forget it!!!!!!!!!!!:D
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
raider1 said:
What if a panel has an OCPD ahead of it? The fact that something can be turned off doesn't affect whether or not something might be examined while energized. As I have pointed out, the only way to test for voltage is to leave the power on. So when serviceing an A/C unit the easiest place to check for voltage is in the disconnect. This requires that the disconnect be energized.

Chris

I already said that about the panel.

The only way to check voltage on a receptecale is to leave the power on, but we don't require 3' of clearance in front of them. I'll bet if you've ever done a machine shop that not every one of those disconnects or control panels have 3' of clearance in front of them.

M.D. had a great point and that's why 90.4 is in the book.

We just had a thread about bubble covers on here and I think most everyone said they were required, but if you keep reading where 406.8(A) makes it sound like you always have to have one 406.8(B)(2)(b) makes it sound like you might not. The city right next to ours enforces the second one and I enforce the first one. Doesn't make either one of us wrong, just different.

You guys complain when inspectors don't use common sense and then when we give you something you complain that were not being tough enough. Geeezzzz. I know we'll never be consistant. One contractor asked me when we were all going to call it the same and I told him when you all started installing it the same.
 
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nunoslg

Member
Working Heigth

Working Heigth

Section 110.26(A), Working Space, tells us, without exceptions, that we have to follow the rules in 110.26(A)(1), (2), and (3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code. Section 110.26(E), Headroom, tells us that the minimum headroom about service equipment, switchboards, panelboards or motor control centers shall be 2.0 m (6 1/2 ft) without reference to whether or not it may be energized. Where the equipment exceeds 2.0 m (6 1/2 ft.) in height, the minimum headroom shall not be less than the height of the equipment. The section has one exception to the minimum headroom rules and that is for existing dwelling units where the service equipment or panelboards do not exceed 200 amperes. The headroom in these cases shall be permitted to be less than 2.0 m (6 1/2 ft.).
The question is does the open door of a disconnect count as headroom?
If so all disconnects that the door opens from bottom to top must be mounted 6.6.
I can?t find a concrete definition of headroom in the NEC.
I always assumed it was talking about a ceiling since all illustrations are of inside installations.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
raider1 said:
What if a panel has an OCPD ahead of it? The fact that something can be turned off doesn't affect whether or not something might be examined while energized.......Chris

110.26(A) says in part " likely to require examination adjustment etc...while energized"

If it said that "which might be examined etc....while energized " the of this impact would be tremendous.

I just looked at my own basement there are many 4" squares mounted on the side of the joists ,facing the next joist 15" away , violation?

My walloven and cook-top employ taps to a j box in the cabinet , much like the illustration in the handbook , .... violation? My disconnect for the garbage disposal is a switch in a box above the counter-top , under the top cabinet and above the lower ,violation?? There is also a J- box under the sink cabinet for it , violation??

When am I required to work live??

This regulation seems to draw a very distinct line ,...

1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.

Is it infeasible to determine the propper funtion of a disconnect without exposing one's self to the energized equipment??


I think I can do it.
 
cowboyjwc said:
We just had a thread about bubble covers on here and I think most everyone said they were required, but if you keep reading where 406.8(A) makes it sound like you always have to have one 406.8(B)(2)(b) makes it sound like you might not. The city right next to ours enforces the second one and I enforce the first one. Doesn't make either one of us wrong, just different.




406.8(B)(1) 15- and 20-Ampere Receptacles in a Wet Location.

406.8(B)(2)Other Receptacles.


406.8(B)(2)(b) is not refering to 15 or 20 ampere, 125v or 250v receptacles.
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
Is it infeasible to determine the propper funtion of a disconnect without exposing one's self to the energized equipment??

I am not talking about the determining the proper funtion of a disconnect. What I am getting at is the A/C disconnect is going to be the location that a service tech is going to "examine" the branch circuit wiring for the A/C unit to determine if the unit has the proper voltage. The only way that a service tech is going to be able to check this is by opening up the disconnect and being exposed to the energized live parts to get a voltage reading.

My opinion is that to service an A/C unit it requires checking to verify that the proper voltage is present. This will be done IMO at the A/C disconnecting means.

Chris
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Why can't the AC/ tech test for voltage on his equipment. Are they qualified to work on the disconnect switch and brach circuit wiring??
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Pierre C Belarge said:
406.8(B)(1) 15- and 20-Ampere Receptacles in a Wet Location.

406.8(B)(2)Other Receptacles.


406.8(B)(2)(b) is not refering to 15 or 20 ampere, 125v or 250v receptacles.

Sure it is. (portable tools, and so forth). Now what I will give you, is that it may not be refering to outdoor receptacles.

406.8(B)(1).....Receptacles installed outdoors in a wet location....
406.8(B)(2).....Receptacles installed in a wet location....
 
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raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
M. D. said:
Why can't the AC/ tech test for voltage on his equipment. Are they qualified to work on the disconnect switch and brach circuit wiring??

In the State of Utah a licensed H.V.A.C tech can run up to 8' of branch circuit wiring from the A/C disconnect to the final connection to the A/C unit. Why wouldn't the A/C tech check for voltage in the A/C disconnect?

Chris
 
cowboyjwc said:
Sure it is. (portable tools, and so forth). Now what I will give you, is that it may not be refering to outdoor receptacles.

406.8(B)(1).....Receptacles installed outdorrs in a wet location....
406.8(B)(2).....Receptacles installed in a wet location....

which version of the NEC are you referencing?
The 2005 does not say "outdoors".

406.8(B)(1)
15- and 20- ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles installed in a wet location shall hae an enclosure that is weatherproof whether or not the attachment plug cap is inserted.
(B)(2) All other receptacles installed in a wet location shall comply with (B)(2)(a) or (B)(2)(b).
 
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