Quality through competition

Status
Not open for further replies.
If I ran my business the way 95% of building department ran their business, I would be out of business as fast as I could spend my operating cash. I use to think that there should be a state internal affairs department that when you had a disagreement with a municipality operating procedure, you call them and complain and they would investigate. The problem is that no one would use this method because it would take too long and all you would end up doing is upsetting the building officials. So I think the 2008 NEC should mandate that there be a minimum of (2) AHJ's in every municipality that compete for the business of contractors. After all we are the customers here and maybe this situation would spark a sense of customer relations with the building departments. The problem gets worse every year and its to the point now where you almost need a permit expediter the same way you need a lawyer in a criminal case. Competition breeds good operating procedures. The current system is cancerous.
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
So the AHJ that lets an EC do whatever they want would win all of the bids? Sounds like a bad idea to me.

Also, what do you mean by "we are the customers"? I think the owners and the occupants of a safe building are the customers, not the installer.
 
ryan_618 said:
So the AHJ that lets an EC do whatever they want would win all of the bids? Sounds like a bad idea to me.

Also, what do you mean by "we are the customers"? I think the owners and the occupants of a safe building are the customers, not the installer.

Spoken like a true inspector. If I'm not the customer, then why am I paying permit fees?
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
PrimaryElectric said:
Spoken like a true inspector. If I'm not the customer, then why am I paying permit fees?

What good or service am I providing you?
I think the service is provided to the person that owns a property, or lives in or works in the building.

And are you telling me that you don't pass your permit fees on to the owner?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
PrimaryElectric said:
Spoken like a true inspector. If I'm not the customer, then why am I paying permit fees?

First in many areas you do not 'hire' an inspector, the inspector is usually a government employee. Your fees cover the running of that office.

If your area uses private inspectors I still agree with Ryan.

The 'customer' is the person who is paying for a code compliant job to be done.

For example the people who run the Connecticut licensing are the department of consumer protection....they are not there to protect or even help ECs.
 
And are you telling me that you don't pass your permit fees on to the owner?[/QUOTE]

Does the owner of an apartment building pass the permit fees that I pay you and pass on to him pass on to the renter of the apartment? How is that relevant? Are you saying you as an inspector don't owe me as the contractor good service. Your comments make it sound like the electrical contractor is the enemy you are protecting the building owner from. You are being hired by me to make sure my electricians are installing to code.
 
Lets not change the subject here. Why not have building departments compete for business. The major problem here is service. Poorly run building departments have not accountability. How do we fix the problem? I came up with a solution. Its a start.
 

tallguy

Senior Member
iwire said:
For example the people who run the Connecticut licensing are the department of consumer protection....they are not there to protect or even help ECs.

True enough, but it is worth noting that ECs are in point of fact protected and do benefit by virtue of the fact that inspections provide a level playing field so that legitimate ECs are not undercut by hacks. Just read some of the recent posts from jurisdictions without inspections.
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
PrimaryElectric said:
And are you telling me that you don't pass your permit fees on to the owner?

Does the owner of an apartment building pass the permit fees that I pay you and pass on to him pass on to the renter of the apartment? How is that relevant? Are you saying you as an inspector don't owe me as the contractor good service. Your comments make it sound like the electrical contractor is the enemy you are protecting the building owner from. You are being hired by me to make sure my electricians are installing to code.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the owner of the apartment passes on the fees to the renter...if he/she didn't, they would be out of business. Permit fees are part of your overhead, the same way gasoline, ladders, tools, phones, etc are.

I think I owe everyone good service, but not because you paid a permit fee. I think I owe everyone good service because I am being paid to do a job, and because I think the job is an important one.

Your comments make it sound like the electrical contractor is the enemy you are protecting the building owner from. You are being hired by me to make sure my electricians are installing to code.

I didn't say there was an "enemy", I am simply stating the fact that I am providing a service to anyone that enters the building. That service includes knowing that they are in a safe building. For example, I am protecting your child from touching something energized in a building. It has nothing to do with the contractor, it has everything to do with the victim. So, you are correct, I am being hired to make sure electricians meet the minumum code...but not for their benefit, but rather the benefit of the public at large.
 
ryan_618 said:
Sure, but your solution wouldn't work. As soon as I make someone remove a set of 500's becasue they undersized the condcuotrs, the EC would find another inspector.

If you were wrong about the 500's being undersized, I would still have to change them but next time I pulled a permit I would probably do so at your competitors building department. And after a while of you making poor judgement calls, all the contractors would use the other building department and yours would be out of business. Another building department would form to replace yours and the concept of competition breeds quality would prevail.

I certainly can imagine why you as a building department employee do not support the idea of competition. If I was the only electrical contractor that a developer was able to use, I would do every thing in my power to maintain that situation. One thing is for sure though, My level of service would be nothing like it is now.
 

jshaw

Member
Location
Idaho
I think a better solution would be to expect building departments to hire trained, licensed individuals. I know some jurisdictions hire "combination" inspectors that aren't licensed electricians and have little to no experience in the electrical field. They are simply required to pass a minor certification exam that shows they can read a manual and have a basic knowledge of the language of the electrical field.

Training, education, and experience would be a better solution. Most jurisdictions do have policy in effect that allows an electrical contractor to express their concerns.

In my jurisdiction they can come first to me. I allow them to express their concern and validation of their complaint. I talk to other inspectors in other jurisdictions, consult my code book and my commentary handbood. Sometimes I will change my opinion. If I stand with my decision I can give them a valid, supported reason why. If they still disagree they can contact the head building official. Beyond the head building official they can contact the Mayor.

I am sure there are some problems in some areas, but I don't feel that 95% is a fair evaluation of all building departments. My guess is a much smaller percentage.

I agree there are inspectors who believe they are the Gods of electricity and all contractors should bow down to them. (I was a contractor once too). But I believe the majority of inspectors are truly concerned for building and individual safety and are willing to discuss problems with the contractors involved. It would be unfair of me as an inspector to claim that I have a problem with 95% of inspections would be unfair. I have a problem with about 2% of contractors.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
jshaw said:
I agree there are inspectors who believe they are the Gods of electricity and all contractors should bow down to them.

I agree. I have a great working relationship with the vast majority of inspectors I deal with. Many know me and my work, and because of that, they tend to not be as critical when they look at my work. By no means do I use this as a way to 'cheat', since they know I am out there doing a good job. But under no circumstances will that relationship allow them to let 'slide' something that isn't right. Heck, sometimes we get together on occasion and have lunch so we can solve the electrical world's problems. (And before I hear it, no, I do not buy them lunch. I know what conflict of interest is.)

As for those inspectors with a Messiah complex, and make their own rules as they see fit, I find it amazing how few of us out there in the field actually have the courage (as well as humility) to say, "Well, honestly, I didn't know that. But if you show me in the Codebook where it is, I'll be happy to change it. Maybe this is the one thing I'll learn today."
 
I am sure there are some problems in some areas, but I don't feel that 95% is a fair evaluation of all building departments. My guess is a much smaller percentage.
 
PrimaryElectric said:
I am sure there are some problems in some areas, but I don't feel that 95% is a fair evaluation of all building departments. My guess is a much smaller percentage.

You are correct sir. What i meant to say was 95% of the building departments in south Florida. I'm sure the rest of country is not like here.

Keep in mind that I started this thread as a point of conversation more that a realistic request. This is primarily a south Florida issue but it one that only gets worse with time no matter where you are. Another point is that the worse it gets, the faster it gets worse, similar to a technology curve.
 

tallguy

Senior Member
HaskinsElectric said:
I know of no examples where competition improved quality.

Take a short trip to a communist country (a real one, not these quasi-capitalist ones we have now like China) and you'll rapidly come to appreciate the quality that is inherent in capitalistic competition...
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
In many cases the only competition for products and services is based on price, and in those cases competition only servers to drive the quality down. Just look at the issues we have with imported toys and pet food.
Don
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top