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Thread: Concrete Encased Electrode

  1. #1
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    Concrete Encased Electrode

    I'm wiring an addition to a home. I'm assumming a CEE will be required because the addition will have rebar in the footing. If no rebar was being installed would I still need to install a CEE? Since the home already has a GEC conductor to the water pipe and to ground rods does the GEC have to go all the way back to the service or can it go to the subpanel in the new addition? Can the GEC be spliced or does it have to be one continous piece?

  2. #2
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    Check with your AHJ.

    If you're not upgrading the service, then it very well could be that you can disregard it.

    If you wish to upsell a CEE to the customer, you could try that before consulting the AHJ. Now would be the time to add one, if they wanted it. I don't know how I'd sell one myself, but...

    Edit to add:

    If no rebar was being installed would I still need to install a CEE?
    If no CEE is present, then there is not one to connect to. See 250.50.

    Since the home already has a GEC conductor to the water pipe and to ground rods does the GEC have to go all the way back to the service...
    No, you are permitted to run a bonding jumper from electrode to electrode. 250.64(F).

    ...can it go to the subpanel in the new addition?
    Easy answer is, no. 250.24(A)(1), 250.64(F).

    Can the GEC be spliced or does it have to be one continous piece?
    That's what makes the last question difficult. 250.64(C)(3) allows you to connect to an accessible busbar. It's kind of a fringe idea to use a subpanel for that "accessible location." I wouldn't try to pull it myself, because I haven't thought it through much yet.

    Now, if you run your conductor to the water pipe or ground rod instead of the service, then it is a bonding jumper (between electrodes). See 250.53(C).
    Last edited by George Stolz; 10-25-06 at 08:26 PM.

  3. #3
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    I should have said, I already checked with AHJ. He wants the CEE. I'm posting questions because I didn't think it was required on an existing home with no service upgrade. Maybe I need it because the builder IS putting rebar in the footing. I'm still wondering if NEC requires it when there is no rebar in the footing.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkgrady
    I should have said, I already checked with AHJ. He wants the CEE. I'm posting questions because I didn't think it was required on an existing home with no service upgrade. Maybe I need it because the builder IS putting rebar in the footing. I'm still wondering if NEC requires it when there is no rebar in the footing.

    No rebar, no CEE required. Recently did an addition with a new service and the GC installed 3/8" rebar and poured the footings before we were awarded the job. The inspector questioned why the CEE wasn't installed so we showed him the Architects drawing with 3'8" rebar in the footing. That was the end of the conversation since you're not required to 'make' the CEE only requirement is to use if 'if available'. If the service is already there and not being upgraded I don't see how you could be required to add a CEE since it wasn't required when the service was installed.
    Rob

    Chief Moderator

    All responses based on the 2011 NEC unless otherwise noted

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkgrady
    I should have said, I already checked with AHJ. He wants the CEE. I'm posting questions because I didn't think it was required on an existing home with no service upgrade.
    If you're still in doubt, ask the inspector's boss.

    There could be rules (in writing) requiring electrodes to be installed/connected when a certain amount of work is to be done on an existing structure. Comparing the amount of time connecting to the CEE, versus time researching the specific laws in place, it would probably be easier to just comply.

    Maybe I need it because the builder IS putting rebar in the footing. I'm still wondering if NEC requires it when there is no rebar in the footing.
    I did an edit on my first post, sorry. No, if there is no CEE already present, then the NEC does not require you to install one. There may be local laws that would change that, however.

    A CEE is an excellent electrode, it would improve the grounding electrode system of the house. What that improvement will bear remains to be seen.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for all the replys.

  7. #7
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    I'm a little overbearing, so personally, if left to my own devices, I would go the "investigate" route.

  8. #8
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    CEE is a requirement of a new service in new construction. An addition does not require you to install one. It is not required that you ground the footer steel, the requirement is to ground the service using the footer steel. Even upgrading the service would not require you to use the footer steel as you would have to distroy the existing concrete footer to attach to it. Add a room with new footers and a new service then yes you would have to us it. In new construction, the 2005 code says "If Present". That means that if some provision wasn't made to make it accessible during construction, you will get out the jack hammer and find it. In 2002, you got away with 2 ground rods because the code said "If availible". different story.
    Unlimited Electric Contractor/Standard Electric Inspector/Traffic Signal Inspector/Highway Lighting and Level One Traffic Signal Installer.

    I know you believe that you understand what you think I said but I'm sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  9. #9
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    UFER Required

    If a new non-reinforced footing is being installed when a new service is installed, and it is at least 20ft in length, then you must install at least 20ft of #4 or larger copper to be used as a (UFER) grounding electrode. If the service is already installed under a previous permit, you should not be required to add a UFER. But it would be a good idea to add it.

    Of course the AHJ rules and there may be local ammendments to back him up.
    Last edited by sparkie001; 10-25-06 at 11:29 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkie001
    If a new non-reinforced footing is being installed when a new service is installed, and it is at least 20ft in length, then you must install at least 20ft of #4 or larger copper to be used as a (UFER) grounding electrode. If the service is already installed under a previous permit, you should not be required to add a UFER. But it would be a good idea to add it.

    Of course the AHJ rules and there may be local ammendments to back him up.

    I disagree. There is no requirement to make a CEE if one doesn't exist. You may do so as a personal choice but you are not required to put 20' of #4 in a footing that does not contain rebar.
    Rob

    Chief Moderator

    All responses based on the 2011 NEC unless otherwise noted

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