well house question

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eric stromberg

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Michael15956 said:
Try 430.103
That only applies to the disconnect, not the controller. That having been said, when the controller also serves as the disconnect, it must open all ungrounded conductors. 430.84 Exception
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
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eric stromberg said:
That only applies to the disconnect, not the controller. That having been said, when the controller also serves as the disconnect, it must open all ungrounded conductors. 430.84 Exception

I agree but in this case I stated there is a disco at the well house. The pressure switch is at the house in site of the disco for the switch.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Michael15956 said:
Well, :smile: this is what I been trying to say here. Are we sure the pressure switch is a motor controller?

What would you call it? The pressure switch controls when the pump comes on or off. I think that qualifies as a controller. Read art. 100 - controller.
 
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acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
Dennis Alwon said:
I agree but in this case I stated there is a disco at the well house. The pressure switch is at the house in site of the disco for the switch.

The only question I would ask is even though the controller is in site of the disco on the house is it an extra long way to it say 100+ ft or is it a reasonable distance say 25ft ? other then that who knows what part of left field this is from. Unless the inspector never saw the disco at the pump house and just ass-u-me-d it was not correctly done :-?
 

Michael15956

Senior Member
Location
NE Ohio
Dennis Alwon said:
What would you call it? The pressure switch controls when the pump comes on or off. I think that qualifies as a controller. Read art. 1100 - controller.

To help answer this question, I'm currently reading over 430.108.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
430.108 Every Disconnecting Means.
Every disconnecting means in the motor circuit between the point of attachment to the feeder and the point of connection to the motor shall comply with the requirements of 430.109 and 430.110.
430.109 Type.
The disconnecting means shall be a type specified in 430.109(A), unless otherwise permitted in 430.109(B) through 430.109(G), under the conditions specified.
(A) General.
(1) Motor Circuit Switch. A listed motor-circuit switch rated in horsepower.(2) Molded Case Circuit Breaker. A listed molded case circuit breaker.
(3) Molded Case Switch. A listed molded case switch.

Is the switch motor rated ? or just a two pole switch.
 

Michael15956

Senior Member
Location
NE Ohio
Well, after doing some reading and learning a bit here, I'm now taking the side that the pressure switch is a motor controller after reading over the definitions in 430.2 of Controller.
 

eric stromberg

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Dennis Alwon said:
I agree but in this case I stated there is a disco at the well house. The pressure switch is at the house in site of the disco for the switch.

Right. I was answering Michael here.

It seems to me pretty clear. The disconnect is not the issue here, it opens both legs and is a Code compliant disco. Therefore, the only question is: "Does the controller have to open both legs"? The answer is "no."

:cool:
 

Michael15956

Senior Member
Location
NE Ohio
eric stromberg said:
Right. I was answering Michael here.

It seems to me pretty clear. The disconnect is not the issue here, it opens both legs and is a Code compliant disco. Therefore, the only question is: "Does the controller have to open both legs"? The answer is "no."

:cool:

Eric,
Yes, I believe from the beginning here that the disco. at the well house was not the issue. Just that I was unsure if the said "pressure switch" in the house was a disco. or controller. If controller it does not have to open both legs, agreed. If disco. then yes it must open both legs.
 

Dennis Alwon

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acrwc10 said:
Unless the inspector never saw the disco at the pump house and just ass-u-me-d it was not correctly done :-?

Here is another question somewhat related and conneceted to structures.

Suppose the well house is the typical fiberglass bubble that goes over the well casing that comes out of the ground. Holding tank and pressure switch are both at the house. The disco is a lock out breaker with a DP switch under the house to disconnect the controller.

Is a disco required at the well head?
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
Dennis Alwon said:
Here is another question somewhat related and conneceted to structures.

Suppose the well house is the typical fiberglass bubble that goes over the well casing that comes out of the ground. Holding tank and pressure switch are both at the house. The disco is a lock out breaker with a DP switch under the house to disconnect the controller.

Is a disco required at the well head?

I say yes it is required within site of the well head.430.101 seems to agree with this the only exception that I see applying would be if it is impracticle and it doesn't seem the case in this situation.


IX. Disconnecting Means
430.101 General.
Part IX is intended to require disconnecting means capable of disconnecting motors and controllers from the circuit.
FPN No. 1: See Figure 430.1.
FPN No. 2: See 110.22 for identification of disconnecting means.
430.102 Location.
(A) Controller. An individual disconnecting means shall be provided for each controller and shall disconnect the controller. The disconnecting means shall be located in sight from the controller location.
Exception No. 1: For motor circuits over 600 volts, nominal, a controller disconnecting means capable of being locked in the open position shall be permitted to be out of sight of the controller, provided the controller is marked with a warning label giving the location of the disconnecting means.
Exception No. 2: A single disconnecting means shall be permitted for a group of coordinated controllers that drive several parts of a single machine or piece of apparatus. The disconnecting means shall be located in sight from the controllers, and both the disconnecting means and the controllers shall be located in sight from the machine or apparatus.
(B) Motor. A disconnecting means shall be located in sight from the motor location and the driven machinery location.Exception: The disconnecting means shall not be required to be in sight from the motor and the driven machinery location under either condition (a) or (b), provided the disconnecting means required in accordance with 430.102(A) is individually capable of being locked in the open position. The provision for locking or adding a lock to the disconnecting means shall be installed on or at the switch or circuit breaker used as the disconnecting means and shall remain in place with or without the lock installed.
(a) Where such a location of the disconnecting means is impracticable or introduces additional or increased hazards to persons or property
(b) In industrial installations, with written safety procedures, where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the equipment
FPN No. 1: Some examples of increased or additional hazards include, but are not limited to, motors rated in excess of 100 hp, multimotor equipment, submersible motors, motors associated with adjustable speed drives, and motors located in hazardous (classified) locations.
FPN No. 2: For information on lockout/tagout procedures, see NFPA 70E-2004, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
It seems like I have never seen a switch located at the well head. Perhaps the except to 430.101 (B)(a) would come into play. The disco there is not practical because there is no goo d place to mount it. I am not sure but it is never required around here.

I would like an answer to that question however, I was thinking more along the lines as the well head casing being a structure and needing a disco.

Trevor will love this since we know how he feels about discos on structure as such.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Dennis Alwon said:
It seems like I have never seen a switch located at the well head.

Neither have I.

Perhaps the except to 430.101 (B)(a) would come into play. The disco there is not practical because there is no goo d place to mount it.

That exception surly comes in to play as it lets the pump be down the hole out of site, but IMO it does not relieve you of placing a disconnect as close as possible.


I was thinking more along the lines as the well head casing being a structure and needing a disco.

It's built or constructed so under the current NEC wording it requires a disconnecting means.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
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Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
That exception surly comes in to play as it lets the pump be down the hole out of site, but IMO it does not relieve you of placing a disconnect as close as possible.

I don't follow. If I use a lock off on the breaker or on the controller, then I didn't think a disco would be required at the well if the exception is applied?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Dennis Alwon said:
I don't follow. If I use a lock off on the breaker or on the controller, then I didn't think a disco would be required at the well if the exception is applied?

You may be right, but IMO the disconnect should be as close as possible to the motor.

A motor only meets the exception if it is impracticable to place the disconnect in sight of the motor.

Keep in mind there is a major difference between impracticable and impractical.


im?prac?ti?ca?ble (ĭm-prăk'tĭ-kə-bəl)
adj.

Impossible to do or carry out: Refloating the sunken ship intact proved impracticable because of its fragility.

Unfit for passage: roads impracticable in winter.

Archaic. Unmanageable; intractable.

So well it's imposable (impracticable) to place the disconnecting means with the pump it is certainly possible to place the disconnecting means in sight of the well head.
 

eric stromberg

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Dennis,
I don't see where a disconnect is needed at a remote well-head.

430.102(B)(2) allows the controller disconnecting means to be used as the disconnecting means of the motor, if it is in sight. But it is not in sight.

The Exceptions states:

The disconnecting means for the motor shall not be required under either condition (a) or condition (b), provided the controller disconnecting means required in accordance with 430.102(A) is individually capable of being locked in the open position.

(a) where such a location of the disconnecting means for the motor is impracticable...

So. It is impossible to put a disconnect that is within sight from the motor. This satisfies (a) and allows us to use the exception to 430.102(B)

Seems to me that the only requirement is to be able to lock the controller disconnect in the open position.

The above Code references were taken out of the 2008. It's not quite as clear, IMO, in the 2005.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
eric stromberg said:
Dennis,
I don't see where a disconnect is needed at a remote well-head.

430.102(B)(2) ........

OK I will agree with that. :smile:

Now where is the exception that relives us of 225.31? :grin:

BTW, Scotty how many personalities do you have? :grin:
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
even if it is exempt from the disco for the motor, it appears the disco for the structure brings it right back. :wink:
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
Regardless of this pressure switch breaking one leg, and the disconnect situation, I still see a probable violation.

Check out 210.23(A)(2)
 
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