Outlets above suspended ceiling.

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roger

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Location
Fl
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Retired Electrician
220/221 said:
Simple question.

What is 400.8 Unless specifically permitted in 400.7 referring to....anybody?

(1) Pendants
(2) Wiring of luminaires (fixtures)
(3) Connection of portable lamps, portable and mobile signs, or appliances
(4) Elevator cables
(5) Wiring of cranes and hoists
(6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange
(7) Prevention of the transmission of noise or vibration
(8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection
(9) Connection of moving parts
(10) Where specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code


As long as they are not in the areas prohibited in 8.

Roger
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
I don't have my book handy. I was assuming that THIS was the entire 400.7:



400.7 Uses Permitted
(A) Uses Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following:

(6)Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange

(8)Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections
are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and
repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord
connection

I assumed that it referred to these items only. I can see now by the (A), (6) and (8) that there are items missing.

Thanks, I will look it up.
 

cschmid

Senior Member
400.7 Uses Permitted
(A) Uses Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following:

(6)Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange

(8)Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections
are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and
repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord
connection

400.8 Uses Not Permitted
Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:

(5)Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above
suspended or dropped ceilings

okay sorry about the delay but I am busy boy..so far all the illustration against are legitimate because they are not Factory cord items..The items that are shown and all the items discussed except the little giant pump do not come with cords from the factory. The way the inspector has explained it to me is an appliance comes from the factory with a cord connected to it..He will allow the factory cord to be plugged into the outlet directly but no other cords allowed..So In My opinion you are allow to use specific items in outlets above a suspended ceiling 400.7 (8) states where the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection and 400.7 (6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange 400.7 (8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and repair

So how does an emergency light qualify for these exceptions they come from the factory to be hard wired..the CCTV is complete with cord from factory and is designed to be in the ceiling tile grid..no permanent mounting and designed according to 400.7 qualifies as an appliance and meets the exception because 400.8 say the exception is 400.7 (a)(3),(a)(6),(a)(8)...Also read 400.8 (5) and then tell me they are not allowed..

edited to add the correct code section
 
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roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
So where do you stop the selective picking of the 400.8 line items to be ignored?

Since "Pendants" are specifically permitted to be connected by flexible cord, 400.7(A)(1), you would say it is legal to run this cord strapped to a structural ceiling, through a door way, then strap it to a wall for say 10 feet, then through a hole in the wall, then strap it up a wall to a suspended ceiling, then through a hole in this suspended ceiling to a receptacle located above the ceiling, is this correct?

We can't just pick one line out of 400.7 or 8 (or any article section) for our convenience, (although it would be nice) and just because a local inspector allows it, does not mean the NEC does.

Roger
 

smithacetech

Member
Location
Utah
I brought this up before a few months ago. see (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=701858&postcount=40)

After thinking about this for a while I have come to this conclusion.

400.7 lists the type of equipment that are allowed to use flexible cords as a wiring method. It says nothing on how the wiring should be done. So in order to create a safe install 400.8 was written to list the wiring methods that are not permitted if using flexible cords.

Now this is where the problem lies... I believe 400.8 was just trying to reference the equipment allowed to use flexible cords in 400.7 as the only equipment allowed, not to exclude them. I think the way they worded it is wrong & should be changed.

Basically It comes down to this:
You can not use flexible cords as a wiring method unless its used for the equipment listed in 400.7. Now, if you do use cords on the items listed in 400.7 then the cords shall not be used for the following ways listed in 400.8.

Obviously the NEC would not intentionaly allow the items listed in 400.7 to be wired in an unsafe manner like the ones listed in 400.8. But, the way 400.8 is worded "unless specifically permitted in 400.7" it could be interpretated to exclude the items listed in 400.7 from the items listed in 400.8.

I think 400.8 should read like 400.9 when it states "where initially installed in applications permitted by 400.7(A)." Now that makes more sense.....
 

M. D.

Senior Member
realolman said:
So you can wire a luminaire with cord, but not above a suspended ceiling?

Yup , no cords above dropped or suspended ceilings, unless it is specifically permited by 400.7 which it ain't:smile:
 

cschmid

Senior Member
I would disagree here because engineers have designed some CCTV cameras to be installed in ceiling grids and the wiring to be concealed for security purposes..So you are telling me that all of these that are install in all 50 fifty states in this fashion are illegal and unsafe.That the hundreds of inspectors that have passed these installations are all wrong..I believe you can install CCTV cameras in ceiling grids and plug them in above the grid as long as it is connected by the factory cord to the outlet and do not believe it is a violation..because it is a cord connected appliance as stated in 400.7
 

M. D.

Senior Member
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_stumped_code_24/ It says what it says, I'm also sure there are millions of cords above ceilings .

Mike Holt

Q. Can a 15A, 125V receptacle be located above a suspended ceiling?



A. Sure. Receptacles are permitted above a suspended ceiling, but a flexible cord isn't [400.8(5)]. Why install a receptacle above a ceiling if the flexible cord isn't permitted in this space? Because the receptacle could be used for a portable tool or equipment; it just can't be used for cord-and-plug equipment fastened in place
 

M. D.

Senior Member
From NYC department of buildings-Code interpretations 2007
http://home2.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/model/code_interpre2007.shtml

I can not find anything that says you can install a flexible cord found in article 400 above a dropped or suspended ceiling , I'm not saying your wrong, just that your view is not held by many of the experts in our field.



SECTION 400.8 - (7/11/2007)
Q: One of our vendors is proposing a new method for wiring motorized window shades in office buildings. A receptacle would be mounted within the accessible ceiling space, which conveys environmental air. A window shade motor would be located below the ceiling and connected to the receptacle by an SJ type cord and a NEMA 5-15 plug. Is this proposed wiring method code compliant?
A: No. See sections 400.8(2) and 400.8(5).
 

cschmid

Senior Member
So can anyone tell me the reason behind the wording of 400.(8)(5) and when it was added to the code??So how do you provide power to CCTV cameras in suspended cielings? You gotta love this forum because I am not the only one who installs outlet were ask to even knowing that its potential use is not code..It is also nice to know guys like MD,rodger,dererk,bob and others I have not mentioned put in an extra effort to help aid in the proper interpretation of the code..I would like to thank everyone for participating in discussions..So now back to devils advocate If we all know this is happening why have we not questioned this section?

edited to add last 3 comments...
 
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M. D.

Senior Member
this is from the May 2001 ROP

6- 185 - (400-8(5)): Reject

SUBMITTER:
Andre R. Cartal, Bldg Dept., Princeton
Borough, NJ

RECOMMENDATION:
Revise as follows:
(5) Where concealed(remove concealed) located behind building walls,
structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or
floors.

SUBSTANTIATION:
As now written there is a conflict with
the panel intent since the word ?concealed? as used in this
section would permit cords in these locations based on the
definition of ?concealed? in Article 100.

PANEL ACTION:
Reject.

PANEL STATEMENT:
Existing code text and the definition of
?concealed? adequately address this issue.

NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 11
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:

AFFIRMATIVE: 11
I guess not , because they added , at some point along the way;

" or located above dropped or suspended ceilings "

I'm not sure when these words were added but they do address this guy's concern.​

 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
So can anyone tell me the reason behind the wording of 400.(8)(5) and when it was added to the code??

The reason behind not allowing flexible cords above suspended ceilings is due to the fact that, over time, the insulation of the outer covering can become brittle, crack and come off. If the flexible cord is installed where it is not visable it would be hard to see if the integrity of the insulation is OK or if the cord needs to be replaced.

This inherent problem with flexible cords is what gives rise to alot of the uses not permitted.

My 1978 NEC section 400-8 prohibits cords from being used where concealed behind building walls, ceilings, or floors. The 1999 NEC added the terms structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, and dropped ceilings to 400-8(5).

Chris
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
The reason behind not allowing flexible cords above suspended ceilings is due to the fact that, over time, the insulation of the outer covering can become brittle, crack and come off. If the flexible cord is installed where it is not visable it would be hard to see if the integrity of the insulation is OK or if the cord needs to be replaced
.



Are they more visable under floors?




404ecm17fig1.jpg
 

smithacetech

Member
Location
Utah
No not really.

But, they are allowed under a raised floor only when 645.5 applies. I guess because the area under the floor is typically temperature controlled & fire protected.
 
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M. D.

Senior Member
No, they are not but, the code making panel has not added the words

"or below raised floors"

and they are not considered concealed,... so they are allowed in that space , for how long?? Who knows?
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
220/221 said:
.



Are they more visable under floors?




404ecm17fig1.jpg

No, they are not more visable.

The general rule in 400.8(5) prohibits cords from being installed where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings, or located above suspended or dropped ceilings.

As smithacetech has pointed out you are allowed to install flexible cord under raised floors as permitted in 645.5(D). The illustration you have posted is showing a cord installed under a raised floor system as permitted in 645.5(D).

Chris
 

cschmid

Senior Member
In order for a flexible cord to deteriorate like that it would have to be a permanent installation because of the time it takes to deteriorate..CCTV's are not permanent installations..so why is it okay to run a drill from outlets in a recessed ceiling but not okay to run a CCTV..neither are permanent installations and both require frequent servicing..
 

smithacetech

Member
Location
Utah
645.5(D) is actually an understandable example of 400.8.

It is "specifically permited" to be installed under a raised floor by 400.7(A)(10) via 645.5(D).
I doesnt specifically say above ceilings so that part is still out...
 

M. D.

Senior Member
cschmid said:
...CCTV's are not permanent installations..so why is it okay to run a drill from outlets in a recessed ceiling but not okay to run a CCTV..neither are permanent installations and both require frequent servicing..

Go for it !!!
 
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