Commercial bathrrom - phantom code reading

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sfav8r

Senior Member
We just had an inspection for a fan/light combo we added to a commercial bathroom. The inspector said "you have a violation, the fan cannot be on the same circuit as the plug because the circuit serves two bathrooms." I said that I believed the code section he was referring to was related to residential bathrooms. He looked it up and said, yes that's true but doesn't it just make sense that you can't keep piling loads on to the circuit. If you are running a hair dryer in both bathrooms and then turn the fan on the breaker will trip.":-? (for the record the fan draws 35.9 watts) I mentioned again that this was a commercial bathroom and that I was reasonably sure that nobody at the mall would be blow drying their hair. I asked if he could give me the code section he felt we were violating. He says "you can't overload a circuit like that, read through article 210." The only way I could get him to sign it off was by removing the outlet since it wasn't required anyway.

I always make a point to be respectful of inspectors. But when I get a guy that won't give me a code section and still insists he's right I feel like my back is against the wall. What do you guys do in these situations? I know I can meet with his boss, but I don't have all day to go down to meetings at the building dept.

I should mention that this was NOT San Francisco, it was a small suburb. The only reason we were even there is because a local customer here in SF also owns a building there.
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
I keep a copy of state laws in the truck. If they can't provide the code reference, they're not turning me down. The phone # to the state office is on the paper too, and I can easily point to it and say "lets call them and see what they think about this" and that should get you a quick approval.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
sfav8r said:
He looked it up and said, yes that's true but doesn't it just make sense that you can't keep piling loads on to the circuit. If you are running a hair dryer in both bathrooms and then turn the fan on the breaker will trip.":-?

Let's see 2 hair dryers at 1500 watts apiece and his is worried about a fart fan? I think he needs to rethink that one. :-?
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
It does not matter if you right, he has to pass it. What's the point in fighting it. It will take less time to do what he wants, move on to the next job and forget it. The guy paying for your work does not care if you right or wrong, he justs wants it passed.
 

360Youth

Senior Member
Location
Newport, NC
guschash said:
The guy paying for your work does not care if you right or wrong, he justs wants it passed.

The guy that is paying you is paying you to make money on jobs that pass and you can't make money fixing work that should not have to be fixed and are not in the plans to fix. You may lose a little fighting this one, but you won't lose the next time trying to figure out want the inspector wants and he/she will learn not to enforce phantom codes.

And BTW, he counts on me being right, THAT is what makes him money.
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
guschash said:
It does not matter if you right, he has to pass it. What's the point in fighting it. It will take less time to do what he wants, move on to the next job and forget it. The guy paying for your work does not care if you right or wrong, he justs wants it passed.


Yeah what I'd do is just wear a tshirt that says "Walk all over me, I have no spine anyway"....:rolleyes:
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
guschash said:
It does not matter if you right, he has to pass it. What's the point in fighting it. It will take less time to do what he wants, move on to the next job and forget it. The guy paying for your work does not care if you right or wrong, he justs wants it passed.


So it takes more unplanned for time and materials to please the "Inspector" ( who is an idiot by the way) and that will make the guy more money how??
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
guschash said:
....What's the point in fighting it...

So we should just all bend a knee every time the inspector shows up?

I gotta disagree with this. If the inspector 'wins' every time, we do not have a free society any more. AHJs are human, and they make mistakes, just like we do. We learn by doing, and making mistakes, and the inspector should be held to that same standard. No electrician is perfect, and neither are the inspectors.

And if the inspector cannot provide you with a Code section you have violated, then you pass inspection.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
360Youth said:
OK, that's pushing it just a little. ;)

Maybe I didn't write that one out the best.

My point is, we shouldn't just do what the inspector says just because he/she says so. If what he/she tells me is something I think is incorrect, I'm not advocating getting into a shouting match, much less a knock-down, drag-out fistfight.

Rather, calmly and rationally discuss your differences. Open the Code book, look at other references (Handbook, White Book, etc.). I don't think there's very many people out there, especially working out in the field, who are 100% perfect when it comes to the Code.

As I stated before, we're all human, and we make mistakes. When I started doing electrical 20-some years ago, I never looked at a Codebook. Today, I look at one every day. And I know far more about it today than I did back in 'the old days'.

It's just that some folks take the word of an inspector as gospel. But they, like us, are prone to err, and if I think what I am being told is incorrect, I feel it is part of my job to correct them.

The relationships I have with most of the inspectors in my area is are great ones. They know me, and my work. But there's occasions where one of us will look at the other and say "learn me something".
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
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Chris
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
After reading some of the responses to my reply, I see we have alot of fighters. So I am changing my reply. I think you should fight this inspector tooth and nail and show him how right you are. If you have to go over him head to do it, so be it. I think when you find the answer in the code book shove it in his face. Show your back-bone, you are just as smart, if not smarter than him. Anyways you are the electrican, he's just the inspector. It is all about money anyways.
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
guschash said:
After reading some of the responses to my reply, I see we have alot of fighters. So I am changing my reply. I think you should fight this inspector tooth and nail and show him how right you are. If you have to go over him head to do it, so be it. I think when you find the answer in the code book shove it in his face. Show your back-bone, you are just as smart, if not smarter than him. Anyways you are the electrican, he's just the inspector. It is all about money anyways.


Now you are making sense. :rolleyes:

It is not about being a fighter, it is about mutual respect. The fact that it is an inspector does not make him any better or worse than anyone else. And in this case it is clear that I am smarter than him. :grin:

If it weren't about money why the hell would I be doing this? :cool:

I wonder how old you are. The reason I ask is because it is gennerally the old timers that fall for the ole "Because I said so....." when it is thrown out by an inspector.


I"m starving Earl, you got any Cheesy Poofs?
 
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lpelectric

Senior Member
sfav8r said:
.........I always make a point to be respectful of inspectors. But when I get a guy that won't give me a code section and still insists he's right I feel like my back is against the wall.

The NEC is made for both Installer and Inspector. The ideal environment is a mutual understanding of the code requirements and a mutual respect for each other's humanity. Respect is earned by a continuing interest and development in code-related knowledge and a mature presentation of concerns, interpretations and ideas. The inspector needs to cite the provision that supports his/her concern. If that is not available, there are mechanisms in place to voice such concern by proposing a code amendment or addition. :smile:
 

360Youth

Senior Member
Location
Newport, NC
guschash said:
After reading some of the responses to my reply, I see we have alot of fighters. So I am changing my reply. I think you should fight this inspector tooth and nail and show him how right you are. If you have to go over him head to do it, so be it. I think when you find the answer in the code book shove it in his face. Show your back-bone, you are just as smart, if not smarter than him. Anyways you are the electrican, he's just the inspector. It is all about money anyways.


Me thinks I note a hint of sarcasm. :roll: I hope so, anyway. You will find there are not too many here that abide by an "I said so" inspection. (Notice I said inspection and not inspector ) It is not about who is right or wrong, but what is right or wrong. He may not like letting things go that he does not like just as much as you do not like having to do things that are not required. I am a lot more tolerable of an inspector saying ahead of time what he is looking for than one that comes in after the fact and costs me money to change what is not required. Sometimes it is not worth the battle, most of the time it is because, as I said earlier, I don't want to play the guessing game every thime I wire something as to what is acceptable and what isn't. That is why AHJ and EC both have the same book to go by. You say you are working out of town because of the GC. If this is your last time having to deal with this inspector, make the call. But if you have to go back for any other reason, he's got you anytime he wants you. (And I use "he" as a general term, sorry ladies. :D )
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
By forcing him to site number or pass it your showing him you do know the code.In future he will be carefull about taging your jobs as he knows he is in for a fight.Your one call to his boss means very little,but if all electricians stand up to him his boss might just get tired of the calls.Most inspectors will site the number if asked and most will back down if you are right.Never ever just give in.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
This inspector is either being a hard ass because you are from out of town or he is ignorant of some basic electrical codes, either way he is deficient . Making "the call" may help him to change his ways or become better acquainted with the code he is charged with enforcing
 
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