What's an inspector to do?

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Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
romeo said:
Sounds like this job was done in a State where property owners are permitted to do electrical work on their property without a license.

That is true in Massachusetts, however I will not issue a permit or do an inspection if there is no license number on the application.

Now I bet that opens a can of worms. Maybe some Ma. EC would like to comment.

This is insane. It just forces people to do work without a permit.
 

romeo

Senior Member
Whats an inspector to do?

Whats an inspector to do?

growler said:
How do you get away with this? They issue permits to homeowners here all the time, they don't like it but it's not a choice, it's the law. After about four trips and no real progress they will normally tell the HO to hire an electrician.

I don't think they like dealing with homeowners because they end up giving to much advice. It takes up a lot of time.

The inspector is not an instructor for those not qualified to do the work,he/she can get in trouble giving advice,should the installation fail.
(
Most diy do not pull a permit,those that do are looking for the inspector to pass the job so he can blame the inspector if anything should go wrong.

Anyone that has had to inspect homeowners work, may agree that it will not pass 99% of the rough inspection.

This is how I get away with it.Ma. General Law (MGL)Chapter 143 3L

In Part) No person shall install FOR HIRE any electrical wiring (etc)without first or within five days (etc) by mailing or delivering a permit application(etc). The key words are FOR HIRE. The homeowner is not doing work for hire so a permit is not required.

Any person installing FOR HIRE electrical wiring (etc) shall notify the inspector upon the completion of the work.The inspector shall, within 5days
give approval or disapproval(etc) The work is not being done FOR HIRE so this section does not apply.

That is my opinion and many inspectors in Ma. are doing the same as I am.
 
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Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
growler said:
They don't like to charge a reinspection fee here and they really don't like to upset homeowners. I guess it's because homeowners have friends and relatives, they go to church, they have business contacts and they vote. Everyone has a boss and for most in government that boss is elected.

Just a thought.

Then perhaps you should just fix it for them free.
 

e57

Senior Member
smallfish said:
(Feeder conductors are terminated with the service entrance conductors at the supply side main lugs of the main circuit breaker of the service panel and the feeders will need to be disconnected and protected by its own breaker on the load side of the main.)
Double lugged on the main side? Red tag - and call the POCO to cut the drop and remove the meter until it is re-inspected - that'll teach 'em! An EC would get no less treatment...
 

romeo

Senior Member
Whats an in sector to do?

Whats an in sector to do?

celtic said:
If a HO permit is allowed by law...who are you to deny them?


Kind of like EI's who make up the code as they along to prove they are right :roll:

That is definitely not true of me. I always provide code sections that I feel have been violated and give the ec the option of finding me wrong.

Read my post about MGL and see where I am coming from.

All Mgl has to do is remove the words FOR HIRE and all would be well.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
romeo said:
In Part) No person shall install FOR HIRE any electrical wiring (etc)without first or within five days (etc) by mailing or delivering a permit application(etc). The key words are FOR HIRE. The homeowner is not doing work for hire so a permit is not required.

Any person installing FOR HIRE electrical wiring (etc) shall notify the inspector upon the completion of the work.The inspector shall, within 5days
give approval or disapproval(etc) The work is not being done FOR HIRE so this section does not apply.

That is my opinion and may inspectors in Ma. are doing the same as I am.

Your laws are different than ours. Here a permit and an inspection would be required for the work in the original post because the power company would not connect without the inspection being called or faxed in.
 

smallfish

Senior Member
Location
Detroit
What's an inspector to do?

Thanks to all who posted replies.
The homeowner has a friend who works for the power company and who helped him. I was subbing for the regular inspector who is on vacation. The permit was for a service entrance cable. When I arrived a new riser and meter were installed. The drop was connected and energized. Service entrance cable led indoors. This my first inspection, I was miffed at how poco could attach without my OK. If poco could attach, then it must have been ok'd, I reasoned. I approved the service entrance cable permit. Later I had reservations and called the homeowner and asked to reinspect from stem to stern. He rejected my requests. With the building inspector we wrote up the violation and sent it out registered mail. The homeowner called me today and wants me to return to show him what to correct. I'll speak with the building inspector first and mull over quickly your suggestions. As I discover what transpired I'll let you know in What's an inspector to do? Part II
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
celtic said:
If a HO permit is allowed by law...who are you to deny them?


Kind of like EI's who make up the code as they along to prove they are right :roll:


romeo said:
That is definitely not true of me. I always provide code sections that I feel have been violated and give the ec the option of finding me wrong.

Read my post about MGL and see where I am coming from.

All Mgl has to do is remove the words FOR HIRE and all would be well.


I am surpised that Mass. has chosen to let HO's do work w/o any sort of inspection.

That cavalier attitude would not be acceptable in NJ....NJ would rather collect the fees from the permits, the increased tax revenue, etc ..than let work be performed w/o any sort of protection for a future owner of the property...and lose out on tax and fee revenue ~ not to mention the penalties for performing work w/o permits (upwards of $2k).
 

mpd

Senior Member
celtic, what do you mean, let the work be performed without any protection for the future owner of the property
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
mpd said:
celtic, what do you mean, let the work be performed without any protection for the future owner of the property

Joe HO decides to finish his basment stringing THHN through-out the basement....he sells the place to Jack...

IF a permit process were in place, Joe would never be able to leave that THHN in place ...leaving a hazard for the future HOs.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
mpd said:
celtic, you are talking about work done without a permit?

Yes.

I am talking about romeo's stance that he will not issue a HO permit (in Mass.) ~ a license no. must be attached to all permits....where as in NJ, a HO can apply for a permit w/o much issue.
 

romeo

Senior Member
What is an inspector to do?

What is an inspector to do?

Twoskinsoneman said:
This is insane. It just forces people to do work without a permit.

It is not insane IMO. It is aimed at stopping people that are not qualified, from doing electrical work,and giving the work to the electrician.

This really goes further,because the building inspector will make a note on the c of o that the electrical work was done buy a person without a license and there was no inspection. All of this is explained at the time I refuse to issue the permit. It usually results in a electrician doing the work, and that is a good thing.

I almost shut my mouth about this issue, because I thought that I would be criticized, now I am glad that mentioned it.

This reminds me about when I stopped well people from doing the wiring in well trenches, and required it to be installed by electricians. Some electricians were upset with me because they had to return to a new home to install the trench wiring.

I could not understand why they would want to give their work away to a guy that digs wells,especially when the well people were using their water line pvc as a conduit for the circuit wiring.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
romeo said:
I almost shut my mouth about this issue, because I thought that I would be criticized, now I am glad that mentioned it.
I am glad you opened your mouth - even though I may be critical - it helps me gain anothers perspective.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Let me see if i am clear on this.Your state allows HO to do his own electrical but you refuse to issue the required permit or inspect.Isn't it your job to inspect all electrical work ? I could see legal action taking place if i demanded a permit.
 

iaov

Senior Member
Location
Rhinelander WI
Where I live the inspector has to give the OK before the POCO even comes to hook things up. Even then thier electrician gets out his Fluke and has a look to make sure every thing is good. The installing electrician also has to file a card with POCO saying everything was done to code.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Here the EC or the HO does the disconnect and the reconnect. The POCO will come out and unlock the meter, if it's locked and then after a release from us they will come out and high press crimp the service and lock the meter.
 

sguinn

Senior Member
Location
Blue Ridge, Ga
As an inspector I would never tell anyone to pull a meter. I could lose my license, be fined, HO could be fined etc. There are protocols in place for a reason and I understand that this is something that varies state to state or even city to city. However, in my jurisdiction even if a tree falls on an overhead service and pulls it off the house or business, the property owner still has to pull a power only permit and I have to inspect the work even if it's at night, weekend etc. It's just not safe(or legal here) for a HO to be pulling meters. Even if they were capable of reconnecting it safely, I bet they wouldn't know to shut off all the breakers first. I also bet that if that HO took the inspector to heart and was injured or killed as a result of his advice, how could he ever sleep again?
 
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