Remodel with main panel in bathroom

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sguinn

Senior Member
Location
Blue Ridge, Ga
I just want to get all my ducks in a row so naturally I turn to Mr. Holt's guys. A house that had been remodeled (without any permit I might add, and completely finished, including rewiring) had caught fire below the panel. I was called out as a consultant from the local F.D. and noticed immediately why there was a fire. Whoever did the work had cut the POCO's tag, removed the meter and load side feed ( it was one of those 1940's models) and ran a 6/3 awg through the wall to the newly installed 200A panel that was located at the end of the sink in the bathroom, hence the fire. The guy calls today for an inspection on the "service" not knowing that I had already been out to the site. I told him that he would have to move the panel out of the bathroom to which he replied "but it was already there". I told him I would get back to him tomorrow as I was swamped in paperwork. My feelings are if they had followed proper procedure none of this would have happened in the first place. So my question to the forum is does it even matter if it was in the bathroom to begin with? Isn't wrong still wrong? Thanks in advance guys!:smile:
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I would bet it wasn't inspected when it was done. I would not allow the service to be energized given the unfused wire going through the house. But I am not an inspector so I don't know what authorities they have.
 
Is your jurisdiction a licensed/permit area?
Can you see the date on the cables?

I would call the POCO. If the tag has been cut, let them put some pressure on the homeowner. Do you have a relationship with them, so you can discuss this with them?

In most jurisdictions, the electrical inspectors are not the police and have very little power/authority to do much about work that was installed incorrectly unless they catch the person in the act of installation.
One way you may be able to work this is "safety to life and limb"
That work was installed improperly and is dangerous not only to the inhabitants, but to the emergency responders as well.
 
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charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I am not sure I follow. Was the fire below the new panel in the bathroom, or below the old panel (if the old panel is still installed in its original location)?

Whichever is the case, I think that the problem is not because the new panel is in the bathroom. I believe the problem is feeding a 200 amp panel with 65 amps worth of conductor. I suspect that the fire may have been caused by overheating of the 6/3 conductor.
 

sguinn

Senior Member
Location
Blue Ridge, Ga
Pierre C Belarge said:
Is your jurisdiction a licensed/permit area?
Can you see the date on the cables?

I would call the POCO. If the tag has been cut, let them put some pressure on the homeowner. Do you have a relationship with them, so you can discuss this with them?

Pierre, have already contacted POCO, waiting to hear back, evidently the job was a total gut and remodel, including electrical. I've already thought of checking the date on NM cable, when I was there yesterday I did notice it was all yellow, maybe there will be enough in some of the switches to read and hopefully it will be new "enough" to catch them red-handed. Going to the job tomorrow and taking the building inspectors with me. The guy came in today and pulled a power only permit hoping that I wouldn't know or say anything about it.:rolleyes:
 

sguinn

Senior Member
Location
Blue Ridge, Ga
charlie b said:
I am not sure I follow. Was the fire below the new panel in the bathroom, or below the old panel (if the old panel is still installed in its original location)?

Whichever is the case, I think that the problem is not because the new panel is in the bathroom. I believe the problem is feeding a 200 amp panel with 65 amps worth of conductor. I suspect that the fire may have been caused by overheating of the 6/3 conductor.

Charlie, I'm not sure where the old panel actually was, but the new one is in the bathroom I believe because they wanted a back to back for the shortest amount of feeder wire. There is a new meterbase and mast 2 feet from the old. They just cut the POCO tag, removed the meter and load wire and substituted the 6/3. The fire started below the panel when the 6/3 melted in two.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
sguinn said:
The fire started below the panel when the 6/3 melted in two.
The smallest wire that can serve a 200 amp main panel in a dwelling unit is 2/0 copper. Why on Earth would anyone try to use #6? :confused: :mad:
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Should be easy red tag and perhaps even issue stop work order.Yellow romex is about 10 years old so unless he or someone else pulled a permit in the last 10 years you got him without even running numbers.Open a few boxes and if yellow shows make him remove all drywall.It is questionable as to if panel could be replaced if it was in the bath to start with.My first house (dump) was atleast 30 years old when i bought it in 76 and panel not only in bath but in a space with 2 feet of clearance in front.I have no idea when Naples even started inspections.Whats scary is he even tried to wire anything knowing so little
 

76nemo

Senior Member
Location
Ogdensburg, NY
Lost

Lost

Is the OP saying that the panel being located in the bathroom supported the fault:-?

Here's a good one for ya'. I had an inspector tell me a real good story awhile back. He had a guy that wired his whole house in C cord, or lamp wire. He wanted a "pre" inspection for the cable routing. He had taken an electronics course twenty some years ago and used the little knowledge he had to at least run the wire and have someone else come in and do all of the terminations and control devices. This was a BRAND new home, and the HO wanted to save some money. The funny part is,.... is the guy turned furious when the inspector said it was ALL coming out. I begged him for a picture,.........no way:rolleyes:
 

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
sguinn said:
....... The guy calls today for an inspection on the "service" not knowing that I had already been out to the site. I told him that he would have to move the panel out of the bathroom to which he replied "but it was already there". I told him I would get back to him tomorrow as I was swamped in paperwork.

Just tell the guy you were there the night before and that it doesn't matter whether the panel was or wasn't in the bathroom whenever, that you're not going to issue a cut-in card to the poco until the service complies. Be firm and get code compliance. No need to soften the issue or create stall tactics...give the guy what he needs....enforcement.
edited to add: I think there was a change, i.e. 240.24(e) in the 1993 code that prohibited panelboards in bathrooms. '93;'96;'99;'02;'05;'08 editions. Shouldn't be a surprise to this electrician....:smile:
 
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sguinn

Senior Member
Location
Blue Ridge, Ga
76nemo said:
Is the OP saying that the panel being located in the bathroom supported the fault:-?

Not at all, it was definitely the 6/3 used to jump the panel hot. You see there was an old existing meter which had the tag cut, meter removed, load side wire removed and replaced with the 6/3 temp. I hope! These guys had the opportunity to move the panel when the house was gutted. We're fixing to head over there, I'll update the thread later. Thanks guys.:smile:
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
sguinn said:
76nemo said:
These guys had the opportunity to move the panel when the house was gutted.

Exactly! Even if the old panel were originally mounted in the bathroom. There is no excuse for them not to put the panel in the right place during such an extensive remodel. (Unless greed and laziness are excuses.)
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
inspect !!!

inspect !!!

stick to your guns, Squinn. Before I would sign off, I'd be sure it met code INCLUDING what's behind the new sheetrock.
In the event of another fire, or worse, it could be your neck on the line.
 

Rockyd

Senior Member
Location
Nevada
Occupation
Retired after 40 years as an electrician.
I'd start with 408.37....directs us to 312.3(A)...Oh look at 240.24(A) and (E).

Look on 240.30 and 240.32.

Stand your ground, the clown makes us all look bad in the industry. Especially when it was a complete remodel, down to structure. When the GC or HO complainns, your just enforcing the law. Low bid is not the cheapest, nor even qualified, to do the work sometimes.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
sguinn said:
A house that had been remodeled (without any permit I might add, and completely finished, including rewiring) had caught fire below the panel. :smile:

Couple of years ago I'm doing a complete rewire on a house in an old neighborhood. If you were to drive down that street there was as much activity going on as a new sub division. So I decide to take a drive and see how many permits were posted. There was a permit on one other house other than the one I was working on. I'm really sure that no one did any electrical, plumbing or structural work on any of those other projects.

They finish the project and then get a power only permit for the service up-grade. If no one sets anything on fire I guess it works out well for the contractor ( no inspections ).

It's getting to where many contractors think you are crazy if you want to do things legal. I did that job for a friend and would only do it if things were permitted. After that he did an addition without permits and we are not such good friends anymore ( I didn't have anything to do with that job ). Even when you try to help people out and make sure they won't have any legal problems if they sell a property they may not like it.
 

inspector 102

Senior Member
Location
Northern Indiana
I would require the new panel be located in an apprved location. Best case, they could gut the old panel and use it as a junction box. No excuse for the decrease in service entrance conductor size. If there was that much of a load under a temp. hook-up, what are they running. I would start looking for some fault somewhere causing the overload or justify the melt down of a #6 conductor on a temp. Stick to your decision and make them change it.
 
inspector 102 said:
I would require the new panel be located in an apprved location. Best case, they could gut the old panel and use it as a junction box. No excuse for the decrease in service entrance conductor size. If there was that much of a load under a temp. hook-up, what are they running. I would start looking for some fault somewhere causing the overload or justify the melt down of a #6 conductor on a temp. Stick to your decision and make them change it.


I look that #6 Thhn up (copper) can handle 75 amps. im curious what were they running in that house?? But like you said there is no excuse for running a smaller wire for the service. 3/0 thhn copper is the smallest you use for a 200 amp feed.

I bet his insurance is going to have some 'questions' too.
 
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