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Thread: Sump pump and GFCI protection?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by don_resqcapt19
    I am saying that it is CMP 2's intent that a sump pump in a basement on a single receptacle does not require GFCI protection under the current code.
    Don
    They should have put that in the code...:grin:
    Answers based on the 2008 NEC Edition when I think to grab that one.

    What you are, you are by accident of birth; what I am, I am by myself. There are and will be a thousand princes; there is only one Beethoven. Ludwig van Beethoven



  2. #32
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    I've always considered the single receptacle acceptable for the sump myself. I just read through the thread and was surprised at the initial response - I'd never thought of it as "not" dedicated space. Interesting discussion.

  3. #33
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    I'm with George on this. In my mind it has always been pretty clear that the single receptacle would be allowed for something like this. There is nothing that says the receptacle must be behind an appliance that is large enough to make the receptacle inaccessible without moving it.
    There are two kinds of people - those smart enough to know they don’t know, and those dumb enough to insist they do.-----Margery Eagan

    Open shop since 1988

  4. #34
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    What I find intriguing is that a single rec. non GFCI is not acceptable in a crawl for any reason. It appears to me that the likelyhood of it being used for personnel is not as great as it would be in an unfinished basement totally accessible.

    The except. 1 to articles 210.8(A)(2) & 210.8(A)(5) appear to support the idea that the NEC is trying to keep the receptacles from being used for personnel. That's why I always thought that except. 2 was meant for appliances-- by def. I still don't see a sump pump as an appliance-- oh well.

  5. #35
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    Next year it won't even matter....
    "Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles called electrons, that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have been drinking."

  6. #36
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    This is for NC applications

    I just checked the amendments to the NEC for NC.
    AMENDMENT 210.8(A)(3)
    (3) Outdoors
    Exception No. 1 to (3): Receptacles that are not readily acces -
    sible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric
    snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be in -
    stalled in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article
    426.
    Exception No. 2 to (3): A single outlet receptacle supplied by
    dedicated branch circuit which is located and identified for
    specific use by a sewage lift pump.
    70-48.1
    NORTH CAROLINA ELECTRICAL CODE, 2005 EDITION

    Notice this is for sewer lift pumps only and for outdoor installations and a dedicated cir. No exception for the crawl space or for a sump pump.

    I just spoke to the state inspector and he said he would extend this exception to unfinished basement for a sewer pump only because of health issues if the sewer pump stopped working.

    I still do not see how one can use 210.8 (A) (5) except 2 in the case of a sump pump. The exception is for appliances not for all utilization equipment. An appliance is a utilization equipment but not all utilization equipment are appliances-- logic 101. Utilization equip. is anything that plugs in an appliance is pretty specific and defined in definitions with some concrete examples.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon
    Exception No. 2 to (3): A single outlet receptacle supplied by
    dedicated branch circuit which is located and identified for
    specific use by a sewage lift pump.

    I still do not see how one can use 210.8 (A) (5) except 2 in the case of a sump pump. The exception is for appliances not for all utilization equipment. An appliance is a utilization equipment but not all utilization equipment are appliances-- logic 101. Utilization equip. is anything that plugs in an appliance is pretty specific and defined in definitions with some concrete examples.
    The definition is specific in one way, and vague in another way. It defines appliances as utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or many functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth. How does that not cover a sump pump? And how can it be pretty specific with so many variable words?


    I think a sump pump is an appliance unless the only argument to the contrary is that your typical homeowner isn't using the appliance. It is operating on its own in the ground in a bowl full of water.

    Besides that:

    Why does it matter if it is a dedicated circuit or not? If the circuit terminates in the box of the sump pump receptacle, it is not meant to GFI protect any other part of the circuit.

    The crawl space part that has come up in this discussion seems to be addressing personnel who may need to work in said crawl space. Shouldn't it be that personnel's responsibility to get GFI taps for his tools? I know OSHA doesn't exactly reach into the depths of every single job, but isn't it against OSHA regulations NOT to have GFI protection for your own equipment?

    It has been correctly pointed out to me that if your sump pump is causing a ground fault, your pump or GFI needs to be replaced. In the town of Hull in Massachusetts the salt air cross breeze between the ocean and the bay obliterate equipment and wiring. This kind of thing makes preventative maintenance difficult (and expensive) to gauge.

    OK, I think I made a point or two somewhere in there and maybe asked a few questions.

  8. #38
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    I don't know why it must be a dedicated circuit. I didn't write the words but nonetheless that's what is said.
    Tell me this. According to your definition of appliance what would not be an appliance?
    The definition is giving specific words to what they are calling an appliance. You can deduce from that they are talking about kitchen equipment and w/d for the most part.

    I guess we will have to disagree on what an appliance is. You seem to think that any equipment would be an appliance and that is your right.

    I am relating how I feel and how the state of NC feels about it. A sump pump is not an appliance

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon
    I don't know why it must be a dedicated circuit. I didn't write the words but nonetheless that's what is said.
    Tell me this. According to your definition of appliance what would not be an appliance?
    The definition is giving specific words to what they are calling an appliance. You can deduce from that they are talking about kitchen equipment and w/d for the most part.

    I guess we will have to disagree on what an appliance is. You seem to think that any equipment would be an appliance and that is your right.
    I'm not asking you if the words exist regarding it being a dedicated circuit. I was asking if you could explain why the words exist. If you cannot, that is OK I can retract that question from you and leave it out there for someone else to take a crack at it.

    Appliances:

    A refrigerator is an appliance because it uses electricity to cool the air inside keeping the bacteria population from exploding. You can feel cool air.
    A blender is an appliance because it uses electricity to chop and mix food/liquid particles. You can feel the difference a blender makes.
    A dryer is an appliance because it uses electricity to heat the air inside to evaporate water from wet fabrics. You can feel that the fabric is dry now.
    The sump pump is an appliance because it uses electricity to move water from one place to another. You can feel that there is no water on your basement floor.
    All of these affect ones sense of touch.

    Intangible:
    adjective not tangible; incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch, as incorporeal or immaterial things; impalpable.


    The television is not an appliance because it is only used to change radio waves and cable signals to alter light and only affects ones sense of sight, which is intangible.
    The radio is not an appliance because it changes those same signals into sound, which is intangible.
    The TV and radio may also produce tangible things (such as heat or static electricity) but that is not their purpose.

    Would you agree with that?

  10. #40
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    No I cannot agree with that rational.

    You cannot feel the lack of something.
    You don't feel the difference a blender makes you see the difference a blender makes. You are really searching for some way to make it logical but I don't see it. Sorry

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