Title 24 (California)

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ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
I had an inspection today and the inspector informed me that it is illegal to install electrical resistance space heaters in California. The specific heater in question was a 240 volt, 2000 watt, wall insert heater with a small fan motor. The job was a residential service upgrade, a new bathroom exhaust fan and the heater.

Can anyone from California verify that this is true? I haven't been able to locate this prohibition within title 24 or anywhere else.

The inspector actually green tagged the entire job regardless of the heater issue.
 
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e57

Senior Member
News to me... Did a few last week.... IMPO they are a poor substitute for REAL heat at an economical level - but if the Seirra Club continues to write building codes we'll all be living in hemp Tee-Pees...

Nothing I saw in the 2005 T24 said it specifically, and apparently we get a reprive until 2009 for the next round.

In the 2005 there are some comments that would imply they are not allowed or limited. But not sure what to make of them???
http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/2005standards/index.html

From a describtion of various systems on page 3:
Electric
resistance systems are also used in some areas and applications, although it is​
difficult for them to comply under the Standards.

Later on page 6 describing min effeciancy:
There are no minimum appliance efficiency standards for electric-resistance or​
electric-radiant heating systems. (whatever that means???)

OT have you heard of the new thermostat law that got nixed??? Not that cold of a day, and the goverment could lower your thermostat, and likewise shut off the AC in the summer by remote control!!!
 

e57

Senior Member
ike5547 said:
Thanks. This was in DC not SF. I have a feeling it's bull.
State codes are state wide.... But I see nothing on the electrical side of things, although HVAC would seem to imply that. (Maybe?) Another thing I noticed was that it said something about controling compliant equipment at point of sale - so if they sell 'em - you're good IMO... :D

In SF it would not be the first or last time I'll ever have an "Electrical" inspector start roaming 'round checking egress, duct work or plumbing, a month or so ago I had one start making all kinds of comments on correcting window flashing - I had to stop him... "Buddy - whats on my permit?!?"

Haven't worked South of Cow Palace for a while now - Isn't DC 'multi-inspectors'????
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
e57 said:
In SF it would not be the first or last time I'll ever have an "Electrical" inspector start roaming 'round checking egress, duct work or plumbing, a month or so ago I had one start making all kinds of comments on correcting window flashing - I had to stop him... "Buddy - whats on my permit?!?"

I recently (July 07') had an electrical inspector refuse to final an electrical permit (in SF) because the access hatch to the attic wasn't large enough for the gas furnace according to the mechanical code. Unbelievable. She ended up getting over-ruled by her boss thanks to an aggravated client.

e57 said:
Haven't worked South of Cow Palace for a while now - Isn't DC 'multi-inspectors'????

Yep, the same inspector for everything: plumbing, electrical, building, etc...
 

e57

Senior Member
ike5547 said:
the access hatch to the attic wasn't large enough for the gas furnace according to the mechanical code. Unbelievable. She ended up getting over-ruled by her boss thanks to an aggravated client.

Electrical (ONLY) Inspector enforcing Mechanical code.....

Yes I think I could name her - but I wont... ~5'3" with a 4' chip on her shoulder - Duh that's all of the SF women electrical inspectors.... :wink: (I think there are 4 now???) But I do believe I could name her, as she is notorious for things like that. IMPO puts on a very transparent veil of aggressively attacking inspections with a robotic professionalism - when its wholly obvious this person receives self-satisfaction through masochistic abuse of power....

If it's the same one - she recently showed up at a supply house I use... About a dozen guys around the counter all at the same time growling under their voices with rage!!!! :mad: Air thick with hate!!! She has obviously rubbed more than a few the wrong way... I see many of the other Inspectors in the same supply house, (getting things for themselves) as it is directly across the street from where they park the city car pool, and none have ever elicited a response like that. (Well there was one - but he got sacked years ago for similar aggressive power tripping...)

Anyway - that supply house if you're in the 'hood has several benefits going for it.
  1. It is DIRT CHEAP! (Cheapest in the city) And they deliver...
  2. Has parking, (unlike the rest of the area) and walking distance to the building dept. and a decent coffee shop that serves a good sandwich for lunch.
  3. Open Saturday. And also across the street is a good beer garden.:wink:
Only draw backs are: it is complete Zoo most mornings - pick it yourself, there is no "line" - when your order is complete you join the mob at the counter, and English is actually a third language for most of the staff...
 
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jefftaman

Member
Depending on what climate zone you are in, Table 151-C in the 2007 CA Energy Code specifically states that electric resistance heating is not allowed.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
jefftaman said:
Depending on what climate zone you are in, Table 151-C in the 2007 CA Energy Code specifically states that electric resistance heating is not allowed.

I'm guessing that in the warmer areas, supplemental electric heat is allowed, and in the colder areas it's not?
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Package C: This package allows electric resistance space heat, but increases stringency for most envelope features to make up the additional TDV energy that would be used by the electric heating system.

But you can only use this if you have an all electric house.

152(b) 1 c of the California Energy Code. New electric resistance heating systems are prohibited in alterations unless the system being replaced is an electric resistance heating system. If the existing system is gas, propane or LPG, then new electric resistance systems are not permitted.

If you want to PM me I can give you the number for the Energy Commission hotline.
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
cowboyjwc said:
Package C: This package allows electric resistance space heat, but increases stringency for most envelope features to make up the additional TDV energy that would be used by the electric heating system.

But you can only use this if you have an all electric house.

152(b) 1 c of the California Energy Code. New electric resistance heating systems are prohibited in alterations unless the system being replaced is an electric resistance heating system. If the existing system is gas, propane or LPG, then new electric resistance systems are not permitted.

If you want to PM me I can give you the number for the Energy Commission hotline.

Thanks very much for this response, cowboyjwc.
 

e57

Senior Member
ike5547 said:
That would have been M****le

Yes - in the village of Mel you shall talk to the hand while I red tag the entire site for something it will take me a moment to find - there it is! A frayed extention cord connected to a table saw - schedule another inspection at your cost - untill such time all work shall cease! I'M NOT KIDDING stopped entire project for a week without even glancing at any work.... I guess he could do that when his dad ran the DBI, dad gone - he is too....

My favorite 'phase' of his was when he would sneak into the job, write code section numbers on paper and throw them on the floor without even speaking, introducing himself, or even making it known that he was there - then leave.... :wink:
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
cowboyjwc said:
152(b) 1 c of the California Energy Code. New electric resistance heating systems are prohibited in alterations unless the system being replaced is an electric resistance heating system. If the existing system is gas, propane or LPG, then new electric resistance systems are not permitted.
What if there is no existing system to replace in a particular room (e.g. the bathroom) but there may be an existing gas system in another part of the house. Would you be precluded from installing a small electric resistance heater in your bathroom?
 
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