Knob and tube carter 3-way switch

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We are having a discussion on Usenet about a home owner with knob and tube. You can follow it here if you are interested.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt....nk=st&q=kilowatt@charter.net#19848488c8451bd1

It looks like the guy has a nonworking set of 3-ways that were wired with the fixture between the commons of the switches and a hot and neutral tied to the travelers. The hot wire has a broken connection. (Carter 3-way)

Is it legal for the homeowner to re feed the traveler with another hot from somewhere else?

I had a look at the K and T white pages here, but it is information overload for me.

Thanks
 

e57

Senior Member
Kilowatt800 said:
(Carter 3-way)

Is it legal for the homeowner to re feed the traveler with another hot from somewhere else?

Thanks

AKA "Hollywood", "Chicago" or other derogatory names... (So what do you have against "Carter"?) :grin:

Switched neutrals when modified from the original install must be corrected! One of the few corrections necessary for existing K&T...

Taking a hot form "Elsewhere" would also not be advised unless it were from the same circuit... Of course that is IF he is REALLY missing the hot???? One of the common mistakes with this arrangement is that people assume they know how one works. There will be a hot and a neutral at each of the 3-way switches connected to the terminals normally used for the travelers - then the common of each switch connected one to the (hot) base of the lamp, and the other to the (neutral) shell. When the lamp is getting a neutral from both sides it is OFF. When getting a hot from both sides - it again is OFF. The lamp will illuminate only when getting a hot and a neutral to either the base or the shell of the lamp.

I'm sure someone has a diagram.....

Additionally, a good non-destructive and code compliant way of elliminating the switched neutral can be done with X-10, or radio controlled devices. By sending the neutral throuhg to the fixture, and only switching the hot....
 
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Dennis Alwon

Moderator
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Location
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Kilowatt800 said:
It looks like the guy has a nonworking set of 3-ways that were wired with the fixture between the commons of the switches and a hot and neutral tied to the travelers. The hot wire has a broken connection. (Carter 3-way)

Is it legal for the homeowner to re feed the traveler with another hot from somewhere else?

Thanks

Carter 3 ways are illegal anyway. If you refeed with a different hot wire you can possibly overload the neutral. This install is not a good idea.

If you can get a new feed to the light in the ceiling then you can correctly wire the 3 ways.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
e57 said:
AKA "Hollywood", "Chicago" or other derogatory names... (So what do you have against "Carter"?) :grin:

California, Illinois, Redneck, Bumpkin, Farmer, DIY, Handyman.... yea, I've heard a lot of names for them.

Calif3wayanim.gif


Try here, here, here, here, or here
 
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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
A visit to both switch boxes (and both switches disconnected) (but remember the connections, especially the commons, just in case), with an extension cord plugged into a known-properly-wired receptacle, along with a solenoid-type tester, can identify whether there are hots and/or neutrals at each location.
 

e57

Senior Member
Or a DMM and any known grounded item.... Is this going to be another ground up/down, solid/standed, Onion/Carrot, red/blue state debate? ;)
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
e57 said:
Or a DMM and any known grounded item.... Is this going to be another ground up/down, solid/standed, Onion/Carrot, red/blue state debate? ;)
No, I hope. :smile:

I do have problems with high-impedance meters when troubleshooting, unless I need to know the actual voltage, and even then, preferably while under load. Phantom voltages are a genuine pain, and wiggies are enough of a load to eliminate them.

In an older home, especially K&T, having a "known ground" can be an unknown in itself. Hot and neutral may or may not be, piping can be energized, etc. A recently-added receptacle, such as new kitchen and laundry receptacles, are more reliable.

That's just me. :cool:
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
LarryFine said:
In an older home, especially K&T, having a "known ground" can be an unknown in itself. Hot and neutral may or may not be, piping can be energized, etc. A recently-added receptacle, such as new kitchen and laundry receptacles, are more reliable.
That's one time when those ends of rolls of THHN come in handy. Just take it back to the panel, if need by. Seldom have I had to do that, but a good tip to keep in the back of your mind.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
mdshunk said:
That's one time when those ends of rolls of THHN come in handy. Just take it back to the panel, if need by. Seldom have I had to do that, but a good tip to keep in the back of your mind.
Not me! An extension cord rolls back up a lot faster than an unknown length (that might not even be long enough) of THxx.

Plus, a cord gives you a reference hot, grounded, and EGC right in your hand. What would you attach a single conductor to?
 

e57

Senior Member
LarryFine said:
No, I hope. :)

Me too.... However beware the wiggy can pass through both voltage and enough current for a good shock, and on occassion enough to activate a relay if working on machinery - but, I'm sure you know that already... And since I'm on roughly 10 years since I have pulled my wiggy out of the spare tool box - I'm pretty used to knowing what is there and what is not - and its not that it is NOT there - just not usable... A quick stop to a known operational outlet is usually enough to square away a baseline to measure from. If your nominals are 121, 123, 126 and you get other than that you can rule it out - but sometimes you cant. Depends on the situation and knowing it.... 1.20v or .240v might be a trick of the eye, but .088, 2.388 isn't. Neither is 0-60.... (when you're looking for 121, 123, 126...) But 60-120 could be though a load....

Anyway - what were we talking about DYI'er on google trying to figure out Hollywood 3-ways - Did you peek at some of the comments there?

I don't know how close you have been following the thread, but he used
> an inductance pocket tester and has verified that no wire is hot at
> either switch or at the light.

Tweeter has some uses - but this aint one of them.... It's like giving a blind man directions to a drive in movie over the phone....

NOTE - No one says "Call an Electrician!"
 
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