Bath receptacle in bathtub space???

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quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
Stall

Stall

Main Entry:
1stall Listen to the pronunciation of 1stall
Pronunciation:
\ˈstȯl\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English steall; akin to Old High German stal place, stall and perhaps to Latin locus (Old Latin stlocus) place
Date:
before 12th century

1 a: a compartment for a domestic animal in a stable or barn b: a space marked off for parking a motor vehicle2 a: a seat in the chancel of a church with back and sides wholly or partly enclosed b: a church pew cchiefly British : a front orchestra seat in a theater ?usually used in plural3: a booth, stand, or counter at which articles are displayed for sale4: a protective sheath for a finger or toe5: a small compartment <a shower stall>; especially : one with a toilet or urinal
No mention of bathtub at all
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Pierre C Belarge said:
Okay, on quick notice. ;) :grin:


Here is what I meant (a picture speaks a thousand words) when I posted in the earlier thread. It is very similar to how Mike Holt's illustration in his "Understanding the NEC" is depicted.

It is not the greatest picture, but the best I can do at the moment. Also excuse my "artwork", it is the first time I used the program for drawing and did this quite quickly.

The area I redlined is the area where I myself would write a correction notice if i saw a receptacle located there. Hopefully I would be able to pick this up during a rough.



(Picture the sink in the OP's picture as being located at the far left hand side of the picture I posted)

Those lines are not directly over the bathtub ,..Thanks for clearing up your position though:smile:
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Check out question #3 .http://magazine.iaei.org/foc/cmp18.htm This is a poorly written requirement, all tubs have an inside edge ,.. there should be little doubt as to what location is directly over it ,.. if they wanted to prescribe a safe distance away from the tub, why not a measurement from the inside edge of the tub.:mad:
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
M. D. said:
Those lines are not directly over the bathtub ,..Thanks for clearing up your position though:smile:


No they are not and if I wanted to install a receptacle inside that red line I could and it would be acceptable per the NEC.
 
electricmanscott said:
No they are not and if I wanted to install a receptacle inside that red line I could and it would be acceptable per the NEC.

Of course that is your opinion, of which you are entitled to. I stand by what I have posted - very similar to Mike Holt's illustration and other code enforcement officials I am familiar with.
But...If proven that it is otherwise - not just other opinions, I would reluctantly change my position.

I will add, it has been enforced the way I have drawn it in our area since I started in this business.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
It is all opinion,... This guy tried ,as did others , to get a measurement . The panel is well aware that the receptacle can and will be very close to "over" the tub ,..the line not to be crossed is over is directly over the tub. They would allow the installation as shown.



________________________________________________________________
18-27 Log #83 NEC-P18
Final Action: Reject
(406.8(C))

________________________________________________________________

Submitter:
Joe Riley, City of Arlington

Recommendation:
Revise as follows:
Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower
stall measuring 900 m (3 ft) horizontally and vertically to the ceiling from the
top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold.

Substantiation:
Tub and shower spaces for devices is little vague and up to
interpretation. Consistency of electrical device and equipment locations with
other parts of the code such as
410.4(D) only makes sense in ensuring electrical safety.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
Section 406.8(C) is intended to be different from 410.4(D).
Cord-connected and similar luminaries are required to be grounded and are not
required to be protected by GFCIs. They are, however, prohibited from being
installed near or above a tub or shower zone. Receptacles, on the other hand,
are required to be both grounded and protected by a GFCI. Further, they are
required to be installed at the sink location. In many bathrooms, it is impossible
to install a receptacle if it is also prohibited from being installed within 3 feet
horizontally of a shower or tub.

Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results:
Affirmative: 12
________________________________________________________________

 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Without addressing the specific situation shown in this thread, I'd like to make a general point about the NEC. . It's obvious that some code rules address safety concerns more directly than other rules.

As an example, the sink rule that specifies a 6' GFCI zone addresses the length of common household cords and the safety concern of appliances falling into the sink while plugged in.

Whatever your "read" of 406.8(C), the fact is that it ignores that a plugged-in device can fall into the tub whether the plug is over the tub or next to the tub. . There?s a huge difference between next to and 6 feet away. . 406.8(C) does very very little to improve safety.

And therefore I'm very very unconcerned with how it's interpreted.

And yes, I do consider it an interpretation.

iwire said:
dnem said:
Does the word "stall" apply to both tub and shower ? . It's an interpretation as it's actually written right now.
David I see no room for interpretation.
NEC said:
406.8(C) Bathtub and Shower Space.
Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.
The word stall does not apply to the tub portion of that sentence.

If you look at other examples of how the NEC uses the word ?or?. . Lets take 410.10(E).
?mercury vapor or metal halide lamps?. . Does the word ?lamp? only apply to metal halide ?
?glass or plastic lens?. . Does the word ?lens? only apply to plastic ?

You can?t make a generalized statement about how the word ?or? is used.
If 406.8(C) said, ?directly over a shower stall or bathtub? then the meaning would be obvious and we wouldn?t be debating it. . But it says, ?directly over a bathtub or shower stall?, so we need to determine what ?stall? applies to. . And determining the meaning of something that can go either way is called interpretation.

For issues that have little or no impact on safety, I defer to the interpretation of the contractor.

David
 

hillbilly

Senior Member
Pierre C Belarge said:
Okay, on quick notice. ;) :grin:


Here is what I meant (a picture speaks a thousand words) when I posted in the earlier thread. It is very similar to how Mike Holt's illustration in his "Understanding the NEC" is depicted.

It is not the greatest picture, but the best I can do at the moment. Also excuse my "artwork", it is the first time I used the program for drawing and did this quite quickly.

The area I redlined is the area where I myself would write a correction notice if i saw a receptacle located there. Hopefully I would be able to pick this up during a rough.



(Picture the sink in the OP's picture as being located at the far left hand side of the picture I posted)


JacuzziTub-70sized-redline.jpg


I agree.
Anything inside the red line is off limits for a receptacle.
Everyone has a opinion, and that's mine.:)

steve
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
dnem said:
?mercury vapor or metal halide lamps?. . Does the word ?lamp? only apply to metal halide ?
dnem said:
?glass or plastic lens?. . Does the word ?lens? only apply to plastic ?

But it says, ?directly over a bathtub or shower stall?, so we need to determine what ?stall? applies to. . And determining the meaning of something that can go either way is called interpretation.

David, there is a clear difference in these examples. The phrase ?mercury vapor? and the phrase ?metal halide? are both adjective phrases that modify the noun ?lamps.? The word ?glass? and the word ?plastic? are both adjectives that modify the noun ?lens.? By contrast, the word ?bathtub? is not an adjective, but rather is itself a stand-alone noun. The word ?shower? could be a stand-alone noun, but it is used as an adjective to modify the noun ?stall.?

You ask how I can say that the word ?bathtub? is not also being used as an adjective to modify the word ?stall.? You may suggest that it is used in that manner in the phrase ?bathtub ring.? My reply is that there is no such thing as a ?bathtub stall.?
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Pierre C Belarge said:
The area I redlined is the area where I myself would write a correction notice if i saw a receptacle located there.
I agree. But just to be clear (and forgiving your artwork, for it is better than I could do), let me say that it appears in your sketch that the lines on the right side of the tub are drawn against the right hand wall. I think that is not necessary, as the right side of the tub is a few inches from the wall. I don't know if there is room for a receptacle in far right corner of the back wall, but if there were, would you pass it?
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
Pierre C Belarge said:
Of course that is your opinion, of which you are entitled to. I stand by what I have posted - very similar to Mike Holt's illustration and other code enforcement officials I am familiar with.
But...If proven that it is otherwise - not just other opinions, I would reluctantly change my position.

I will add, it has been enforced the way I have drawn it in our area since I started in this business.

Thats the inspectors version of "We have always done it like that." :roll:
In the picture you show I would agree that there is no need for a receptacle because there is no vanity counter it is just a tub area.
If you use the example of a shower curtain being used on the tub it would be draped inside the edge of the tub to keep water spray inside the tub, and the receptacle would be outside of the wet area.
I can't see how you interpret the platform of a self rimming tub with no shower as a "stall". if this same tub was free standing on the floor, like a ball and claw tub, would you say the end of the room is a "stall" ?
 

M. D.

Senior Member
charlie b said:
...., as the right side of the tub is a few inches from the wall. I don't know if there is room for a receptacle in far right corner of the back wall, but if there were, would you pass it?

Based on these comments he would allow it,... though he seems to have had a change of opinion in this regard??


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre C Belarge
Dennis
I tell the contractors to take a level and draw a plumb line vertical from the tub edge, any space outside of the plumb line is fair game if you are asking me.

His response when asked inside edge or outside edge of the bathtub

Pierre C Belarge said:
I would say that the outside edge of the tub is part of the tub, so...from the outside edge. If the outside edge is really a hardship for the installer, he may need to reevaluate the way he works.



http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=726961&postcount=25
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
acrwc10 said:
...
I can't see how you interpret the platform of a self rimming tub with no shower as a "stall". if this same tub was free standing on the floor, like a ball and claw tub, would you say the end of the room is a "stall" ?

From post #66
... bathtub or shower stall ... Tub and shower spaces ... tub or shower zone ...

Sorry I'm not as good at highlighting things as the next guy but you can see post #66 and see the grammatical constructions. "A or B C" is a valid contraction of "A C or B C". It may not be intended to be so in the NEC but as worded "stall" may or may not apply to bathtub, therefore "A C" may be the actual intent. Rewriting it "B C or A" would clear things up as another poster mentioned.

iwire and the poster above argue about the existence of bathtub stalls. The normal phrasing is "bathtub enclosure" or "bathtub space". The decision shown in post #66 also calls it a "bathtub zone". Since I have in the past and will in the future order "bathtub enclosure kits" I am unwilling to reject "stall" just because it is a less common usage. As to the claw tub at the end of a room I would tend to refer to the area as the bathtub "space" and understand a referral of "stall" to mean the same area.

Several have argued about judgement. I would accept this installation providing there was no decent alternative to provide the safety we know the NEC was trying to achieve. That is, a reasonable distance between a tub and an outlet. I personally do not believe that the NEC meant to allow receptacles to be installed within spaces dedicated to bathing, whether standing or not.

This I accept:
406.8(C) is poorly phrased and a reasonable person might presume that an area dedicated to a bathtub "is or is not" a part of the clause. Either interpretation might be rightfully argued due to the poor phrasing.

I would challenge:
If you were to violate 406.8(C) by installing a receptacle within a claw tub, what tool would you use to punch the hole, and would it be above or below water? :grin:
 

M. D.

Senior Member
pfalcon said:
Several have argued about judgement. I would accept this installation providing there was no decent alternative to provide the safety we know the NEC was trying to achieve. That is, a reasonable distance between a tub and an outlet. :grin:

Where have you ever seen this expressed ???
I think they know it can and will be close to the bathtub.

Did you read this;

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
Section 406.8(C) is intended to be different from 410.4(D).
Cord-connected and similar luminaries are required to be grounded and are not
required to be protected by GFCIs. They are, however, prohibited from being
installed near or above a tub or shower zone. Receptacles, on the other hand,
are required to be both grounded and protected by a GFCI. Further, they are
required to be installed at the sink location. In many bathrooms, it is impossible
to install a receptacle if it is also prohibited from being installed within 3 feet
horizontally of a shower or tub.
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
M. D. said:
Where have you ever seen this expressed ???
I think they know it can and will be close to the bathtub.

Did you read this;

I am confused as to what you are trying to point out. Are you informing me that restricting the location of receptacles is not for the purpose of safety? My statement that you quoted did not contain a specified distance. It does not disagree with the article you quote. In fact, the paragraph you quoted includes "I would accept ..." expressing my opinion that I am in agreement with the article you just quoted. Therefore your reply puzzles me. It appears you are reprimanding me for having an opinion that is in accord with the panel decision. Can you please be specific with what you believe I meant? :confused:
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
pfalcon said:
"A or B C" is a valid contraction of "A C or B C". . . therefore "A C" may be the actual intent.
"AC" cannot have been the intent, because "AC" does not exist, as I have pointed out twice already. Also, please recall that the rules for English grammar are not in sync with the rules of algebra. There is no "Distributive Property of Adjectives over Nouns." :D
 

M. D.

Senior Member
pfalcon said:
It appears you are reprimanding me for having an opinion that is in accord with the panel decision. Can you please be specific with what you believe I meant? :confused:


I am not in the position to reprimand anyone for having an opinion ,I hope I did not offend you,...
Your opinion however is not quite in accord, there is no caveat in regard to alternative locations . They intentionally do not contemplate a distance from the tub they exclude the tub and the space directly over it. IMO that is the footprint of the bathtub up to and including the ceiling. Outside that footprint is fair game , regardless the distance from that footprint ,..as it is currently written anyway .
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
I agree it is not directly over the tub and meets the letter of the code. I would try to talk the installer out of putting it there. Failing that I would go to my building official and ask that he rule in favor of moving it. Failing that, I would sign it off.

What I don't understand is why I can't put a receptacle that close to my pool?
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
sandsnow said:
I agree it is not directly over the tub and meets the letter of the code. I would try to talk the installer out of putting it there. Failing that I would go to my building official and ask that he rule in favor of moving it. Failing that, I would sign it off.

What I don't understand is why I can't put a receptacle that close to my pool?

Is it because you don't have a pool ? :grin:
 
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