Converted Garage

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frizbeedog

Senior Member
Location
Oregon
A garage is being converted into a habitable room. The crew installs the receptacles at 12" AFF per customer's request. The openings for the garage doors were to be framed in and finished like the rest of the room. Customer decides to keep the roll up doors. Come inspection time the crew was informed by the inspector that the receptacles were required to be above 18".
What's your take?:confused:

Frizbeedog's first impression is that these cookies are tainted.
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
frizbeedog said:
A garage is being converted into a habitable room. The crew installs the receptacles at 12" AFF per customer's request. The openings for the garage doors were to be framed in and finished like the rest of the room. Customer decides to keep the roll up doors. Come inspection time the crew was informed by the inspector that the receptacles were required to be above 18".
What's your take?:confused:

Frizbeedog's first impression is that these cookies are tainted.


I would ask the inspector to cite the code violation.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
I think that the inspector might be thinking they're gonna park a car in there. He might have this confused with a 511 location
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
My take on this is that even if it were a garage the outlets are still legal at 12". This is not an automotive garage and it certainly isn't now.
 

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
frizbeedog said:
A garage is being converted into a habitable room. The crew installs the receptacles at 12" AFF per customer's request. The openings for the garage doors were to be framed in and finished like the rest of the room. Customer decides to keep the roll up doors. Come inspection time the crew was informed by the inspector that the receptacles were required to be above 18".
What's your take?:confused:

Frizbeedog's first impression is that these cookies are tainted.

I wonder if the inspector is referring to Section 304 of the International Mechanical code which at 304.3 requires an elevation of 18" for equipment or appliances in private garages. The inspector may be calling the receptacles "equipment".
These people can't have it both ways...they either have a "habitable" room, or a "private residential auto garage". :smile:
 

frizbeedog

Senior Member
Location
Oregon
wbalsam1 said:
These people can't have it both ways...they either have a "habitable" room, or a "private residential auto garage". :smile:

Right. But even if he's sayin "private residential garage," whereI s the 18" in rule there?

I say to the crew, "call him up and have him cite it." Haven't heard back yet from the crew.
 

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
frizbeedog said:
Right. But even if he's sayin "private residential garage," whereI s the 18" in rule there?

I say to the crew, "call him up and have him cite it." Haven't heard back yet from the crew.

Bear with me on this. If you look at the definition of equipment in the NEC, it says "A general term including material, fittings, luminaires, apparatus and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation." If you allow that a receptacle could be defined as "equipment", then when a building inspector looks at 304.3 of the Mechanical Code, he/she may very well ascertain (rule) that from the text of this provision, it would be not permitted to install a receptacle at 12" AFF.
Here is the text in part:
304.3 Elevation of ignition source. Equipment and appliances having an ignition source and located in hazardous locations and public garages, private garages, repair garages,.....etc., shall be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18 inches above the floor surface......"
The intent of this rule is based on the fact that gasoline fumes are heavier than air and would collect on the floor below 18".
Leaving the garage doors and a concrete floor is a solid example of a private garage classification of the use of the space. :smile:
 

frizbeedog

Senior Member
Location
Oregon
wbalsam1 said:
Bear with me on this. If you look at the definition of equipment in the NEC, it says "A general term including material, fittings, luminaires, apparatus and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation." If you allow that a receptacle could be defined as "equipment", then when a building inspector looks at 304.3 of the Mechanical Code, he/she may very well ascertain (rule) that from the text of this provision, it would be not permitted to install a receptacle at 12" AFF.
Here is the text in part:
304.3 Elevation of ignition source. Equipment and appliances having an ignition source and located in hazardous locations and public garages, private garages, repair garages,.....etc., shall be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18 inches above the floor surface......"
The intent of this rule is based on the fact that gasoline fumes are heavier than air and would collect on the floor below 18".
Leaving the garage doors and a concrete floor is a solid example of a private garage classification of the use of the space. :smile:

I doubt you could make a case that a receptacle is equipment or an appliance. And I dont' mind bearing with you.:smile: See definition for outlet, and receptacle. If I bear with you long enough down that rabbit hole I might eventually think that the wiring system is now going to be called equipment. But I understand that your just trying to project what the inspector might be thinking. Do you really think this inspector would make that leap?
 
wbalsam1 said:
Bear with me on this. If you look at the definition of equipment in the NEC, it says "A general term including material, fittings, luminaires, apparatus and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation." If you allow that a receptacle could be defined as "equipment", then when a building inspector looks at 304.3 of the Mechanical Code, he/she may very well ascertain (rule) that from the text of this provision, it would be not permitted to install a receptacle at 12" AFF.
Here is the text in part:
304.3 Elevation of ignition source. Equipment and appliances having an ignition source and located in hazardous locations and public garages, private garages, repair garages,.....etc., shall be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18 inches above the floor surface......"
The intent of this rule is based on the fact that gasoline fumes are heavier than air and would collect on the floor below 18".
Leaving the garage doors and a concrete floor is a solid example of a private garage classification of the use of the space. :smile:

You're using definitions from one code and requirements from another... How does the MC define "equipment"?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
First of all regardless of the door type this is a habitable room, not a garage. Second of all there is no 18" receptacle requirement in a residential garage. Third of all the inspector needs to provide a code reference which he can't. Fourth of all a receptacle is not a piece of equipment. Fifth of all the guy made an error.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
frizbeedog said:
I doubt you could make a case that a receptacle is equipment

The NEC definition of 'equipment' clearly includes receptacles.

From Article 100

Equipment A general term including material, fittings, devices, ................


That said there is no 18" rule in the NEC.
 

dwellselectric

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Even though the garage is being converted with the garage doors still in place and still usable isn't it possible that down the road they could convert it back into a working garage if they decided? Perhaps that is what he/she is getting at?
 

M. D.

Senior Member
NECA 1 recomends 18" it is not a requirement . I don't think the 18" requirement pertains to this location ,..I assume a dwelling unit and not a commercial garage??
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
dSilanskas said:
Even though the garage is being converted with the garage doors still in place and still usable isn't it possible that down the road they could convert it back into a working garage if they decided? Perhaps that is what he/she is getting at?


Why would it matter?

Saves me from typing...

infinity said:
First of all regardless of the door type this is a habitable room, not a garage. Second of all there is no 18" receptacle requirement in a residential garage. Third of all the inspector needs to provide a code reference which he can't. Fourth of all a receptacle is not a piece of equipment. Fifth of all the guy made an error
 
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wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
frizbeedog said:
I doubt you could make a case that a receptacle is equipment or an appliance. And I dont' mind bearing with you.:smile: See definition for outlet, and receptacle. If I bear with you long enough down that rabbit hole I might eventually think that the wiring system is now going to be called equipment. But I understand that your just trying to project what the inspector might be thinking. Do you really think this inspector would make that leap?

I don't know. Inspectors come in all shapes and sizes with all sorts of quirks, pet peeves, misunderstandings and yes, even proper interpretations. ;) There is nothing even remotely "uniform" in the Uniform Code. :roll: It's just not that far a reach for an inspector to deem a receptacle as "equipment". The building official has to enforce the building CODE of which the NEC is only a standard referenced within. He/she must still enforce the provision of 304.3 in the Mechanical Code, too. And it does clearly state the "private garage". If you can actually drive an auto into this space as has been done in the past, it's probably still a garage.If it quacks like a duck....:smile:
Not enough info, though. Does the space have a new carpeted floor....is it properly insulated per Energy Code....does it meet the definition of "habitable space"...is there proper fenestration.....? etc., etc., etc...
 

Energize

Senior Member
Location
Milky Way Galaxy
iwire said:
The NEC definition of 'equipment' clearly includes receptacles.

From Article 100

Equipment A general term including material, fittings, devices, ................


That said there is no 18" rule in the NEC.

pbeasley said:
You're using definitions from one code and requirements from another... How does the MC define "equipment"?

I would have to agree. How the MC defines 'equipment' is the key to the MC requirement.
 
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