Bath receptacle in bathtub space???

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"The building official must promote the purpose of the code and make reasonable ? factual, justifiable, documented, rational, sound, sensible ? interpretation of the provisions of the code. "


All of those terms are subject to different persons thoughts and could be interpreted differently by different people. I could see that as going nowhere in court.




As an inspector for the installation I see in the picture, I would write it as a "correction is necessary".
Let the contractor dispute it and if someone above me in the chain wants to put their signature it, great. My signature would not be on a legal piece of paper for this installation...too much liability. But I would happily let someone else sign what they will.
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
Can those of you who say it is code compliant tell me just how far to the right you would allow it before it is "not to code" ?????? You have to draw the line someplace. That place is at the end of the countertop. Trust me, I have seen lines like this get streached pretty thin. I would call it not to code.
 
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pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
406.8 (C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

Getting rid of the OR and SHOWER clauses: ... shall not be installed within ... a bathtub ... stall.

Imagine curtains being hung around that bathtub for modesty. The receptacle would be within the stall and therefore a violation.

6" left may not be safer but it is where the NEC drew the line for a violation. From an inspection standpoint 6" to the left would have been "You should have installed it on the other side of the sink; I don't like it but it passes." You just put it on the wrong side of the acceptance line.

Oh, yeah, and if we are talking about inspectors having some judgement. It's a violation and I won't accept 6" to the left. Move it to the other side of the sink.

So are we happy yet that I'm not an inspector? :grin:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Cavie said:
Can those of you who say it is code compliant tell me just how far to the right you would allow it before it is "not to code" ??????

When it breaks the code.

It is not over the tub so it does not break the rule.

Keep in mind this has nothing to do with how we feel it has to do with how the section is written.




edit, spelling
 
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iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
pfalcon said:
Imagine curtains being hung around that bathtub for modesty. The receptacle would be within the stall and therefore a violation.

It is not a shower so even with curtains it is not a shower stall so the rule does not apply.
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
pfalcon said:
406.8 (C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

Getting rid of the OR and SHOWER clauses: ... shall not be installed within ... a bathtub ... stall.

Maybe that could be your code proposal for 2011, get "rid of the OR and SHOWER". . But for 2008, it's still in there.

Does the word "stall" apply to both tub and shower ? . It's an interpretation as it's actually written right now.

pfalcon said:
6" left may not be safer but it is where the NEC drew the line for a violation.

As an inspector, I'm sticking to a concept that I intend to apply frequently. . When I question the code compliance of any item that is open to interpretation, I ask myself how actual safety will be impacted by that exact installation that I'm looking at. . The picture we're looking at in post #1 shows that if the plug is slid over a couple of inches into the mirror, it's still not farther away from the tub than the length of a short cord. . So I'd defer to the interpretation and judgment of the contractor.

pfalcon said:
Move it to the other side of the sink.

This picture isn't big enough to see if that's an option, but I've many times seen installations that don't have that option. . Within the mirror might be the only other option.

David
 

charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Cavie said:
Can those of you who say it is code compliant tell me just how far to the right you would allow it before it is "not to code" ?????? You have to draw the line someplace.
I would draw the line from the leftmost edge of the tub to its rightmost edge.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
pfalcon said:
Getting rid of the OR and SHOWER clauses: ... shall not be installed within ... a bathtub ... stall.
You can't do that. Get rid of the word "stall," if you are getting rid of the word shower. There is no such thing as a "bathtub stall."
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
dnem said:
Does the word "stall" apply to both tub and shower ? . It's an interpretation as it's actually written right now.

David I see no room for interpretation.


406.8(C) Bathtub and Shower Space.
Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

The word stall does not apply to the tub portion of that sentence.
 

lpelectric

Senior Member
A bathtub doesn't have a "stall" according to the language of the code. "bathtub or showerstall" phrase has the word "or" meaning one or the other. It could have been worded "bathtub stall and shower stall", or it could have been worded "bathtub and showerstall", but it wasn't.

I agree with iwire that the receptacle is not "over" the tub. :smile:
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
pfalcon said:
406.8 (C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

Getting rid of the OR and SHOWER clauses: ... shall not be installed within ... a bathtub ... stall.

If we want to butcher the wording, lets drop the "not": ... shall not be installed within ... a bathtub ... stall.

Problem solved :roll:
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I am surprised by the complication of this mess. We all agree with a tub that a switch is fine once it is outside the area of the tub itself. Suppose the deck for the tub was 8 feet long--- would you still say the receptacle is non compliant. The deck of the tub is a deck not a stall. I don't like the whole concept of the bathroom design that is pictured but moving it over the sink will not change the safety issues you are worried about. This is not a violation and I will fight it too my death. :grin:
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Pierre C Belarge said:
"The building official must promote the purpose of the code and make reasonable ? factual, justifiable, documented, rational, sound, sensible ? interpretation of the provisions of the code.

As an inspector for the installation I see in the picture, I would write it as a "correction is necessary".
Let the contractor dispute it and if someone above me in the chain wants to put their signature it, great. My signature would not be on a legal piece of paper for this installation...too much liability. But I would happily let someone else sign what they will.


I must have misunderstood these comments:-? http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=78574&page=3

Pierre C Belarge said:
Tubs come in many different dimensions, it would be difficult to have a measurement in the NEC.

This is not so hard.

Take a straight edge, and plumb it from the outside edge of the tub. Mark the line with a heavy Sharpie all the way to the ceiling. That is the tub enclosure area and receptacles are not permitted in that area.
 

mistermudd

Senior Member
Location
Washington State
Wow, what a response, all the differences of opinions. E mailed the picture to my supervisor (his nickname contains the words "red tag") and he told me that it is code compliant and that we had accept it whether I liked it or not(which I don't). Thank you very much
 

danickstr

Senior Member
If this was a tub with a flanged top that continued over the same distance to the edge of the counter, then it would be a violation. I would never have installed it there for fear of an inspector clobbering me on it.
 
Okay, on quick notice. ;) :grin:


Here is what I meant (a picture speaks a thousand words) when I posted in the earlier thread. It is very similar to how Mike Holt's illustration in his "Understanding the NEC" is depicted.

It is not the greatest picture, but the best I can do at the moment. Also excuse my "artwork", it is the first time I used the program for drawing and did this quite quickly.

The area I redlined is the area where I myself would write a correction notice if i saw a receptacle located there. Hopefully I would be able to pick this up during a rough.



(Picture the sink in the OP's picture as being located at the far left hand side of the picture I posted)


JacuzziTub-70sized-redline.jpg
 
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quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
Ok Now I Am Begging You!!!!

Ok Now I Am Begging You!!!!

What is to the left of the sink???? I AM BEGGING NOW ON MY KNEES FOR A PICTURE!!! Dont do this to a cow.
 
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