Bath receptacle in bathtub space???

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dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
charlie b post#69 said:
My reply is that there is no such thing as a “bathtub stall.”

charlie b post #70 said:
I think that is not necessary, as the right side of the tub is a few inches from the wall.

I've never seen the tub [freestanding non-shower] porcelain itself touch the wall, so according to the "no such thing as a bathtub stall" believers on this site, 406.8(C) would never apply and you can put the plug anywhere you want. . You can post whatever pictures you want, it's all the same.

I do see shower tub combos in small stalls that have the porcelain right up against the wall. . But has anybody ever seen a non-shower tub porcelain touch the wall ? . How about a whirlpool [hydromassage tub] ? . I've never seen one that wasn't surrounded by a deck. . So some of you think you can encircle the whirlpool with plugs ?

I consider that an interpretation and one that I don't agree with.

David
 

lpelectric

Senior Member
mistermudd said:
IMG_3687.jpg


If you were an inspector how would you call this one? Bath tub is to the right. And if you had to move the receptacle where would you put it?

My first picture I hope it works.

I would have the installer place it under the front lip of the vanity counter top on the far left away from the tub as much as is possible.:smile:
 

M. D.

Senior Member
lpelectric said:
I would have the installer place it under the front lip of the vanity counter top on the far left away from the tub as much as is possible.:smile:

The only thing you can do , as an inspector , is to demonstrate to the installer how something not directly over the bathtub is in fact, directly over the bathtub .. heck I'd even supply the level and a plumb string just to see you try :smile:

Ive got a question for you folks who think this recpt is directly over the bathtub,..
If I were to turn the spiggot 180*and open the water valve , am I filling the bathtub or the bathroom with water???
 
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lpelectric

Senior Member
M. D. said:
The only thing you can do , as an inspector , is to demonstrate to the installer how something not directly over the bathtub is in fact, directly over the bathtub .. heck I'd even supply the level and a plumb string just to see you try :smile:

Not exactly. There's another thing I can do as an inspector. I can offer suggestions on how to minimize the potential for an electrical hazard. I can help the installer and the homeowner consider what's necessary for safety. The solution may not necessarily be convenient, but perhaps a little safer. It is my duty and obligation to examine factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons from conditions that are potentially hazardous. :smile:
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
lpelectric said:
I would have the installer place it under the front lip of the vanity counter top on the far left away from the tub as much as is possible.:smile:




If I was the installer I would thank you for the suggestion and have you sign off on the way it is.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
lpelectric said:
Not exactly. There's another thing I can do as an inspector. I can offer suggestions on how to minimize the potential for an electrical hazard. I can help the installer and the homeowner consider what's necessary for safety. The solution may not necessarily be convenient, but perhaps a little safer. It is my duty and obligation to examine factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons from conditions that are potentially hazardous. :smile:

The language you used " I would have the installer " does not sound like a suggestion but rather a direction . Sorry if it would just be your preference to see it somewhere else ,.. now if would be so kind as to sign the card I'll be on my way:smile: :smile:
 
I say it is a violation and would ask for it to be relocated. It is not always just as easy as nailing a box to a stud. The picture doesnt' tell the whole story what is behind the sinks? could it have been put there? If it isnt' a violation for being in the shower space it is a violation of not being installed in a workman like manner. It is becoming to familar looking in our trade to see work that is being done by people put out on their own, before they are electricians. I don't mean to be harsh just honest.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
dnem said:
I've never seen the tub [freestanding non-shower] porcelain itself touch the wall, so according to the "no such thing as a bathtub stall" believers on this site, 406.8(C) would never apply and you can put the plug anywhere you want. . You can post whatever pictures you want, it's all the same.

. How about a whirlpool [hydromassage tub] ? . I've never seen one that wasn't surrounded by a deck. . So some of you think you can encircle the whirlpool with plugs ?

I consider that an interpretation and one that I don't agree with.

David
p384b_Neo-Classic-Collectio.jpg

How far away from this baby David
 

M. D.

Senior Member
sparkygriffin said:
I say it is a violation .......

It is not a violation as the code is currently written as it is not directly over the bathtub. The code making panel knows that a receptacle can be very close to being directly over the bathtub and they wrote that way intentionally

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
Section 406.8(C) is intended to be different from 410.4(D).
Cord-connected and similar luminaries are required to be grounded and are not
required to be protected by GFCIs. They are, however, prohibited from being
installed near or above a tub or shower zone.
Receptacles, on the other hand,
are required to be both grounded and protected by a GFCI. Further, they are
required to be installed at the sink location. In many bathrooms, it is impossible
to install a receptacle if it is also prohibited from being installed within 3 feet
horizontally of a shower or tub.
 

Mike03a3

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
dnem said:
. . But has anybody ever seen a non-shower tub porcelain touch the wall ?

Sure, all the time. Here's a pic of one. This bathroom also has a shower stall - at the other end of the room.
IMG_0138.jpg

I don't like the location of the receptacle in the OP's pic, but my likes and dislikes are not yet incorporated in the code. It appears to me that the "bathtub" in the original pic is the white part. It also appears that a vertical plane touching the right edge of the receptacle and extended perpendicular to the wall would clear the leftmost edge of the tub. That being the case, it isn't "over" any part of the tub.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
sparkygriffin said:
I say it is a violation and would ask for it to be relocated. It is not always just as easy as nailing a box to a stud. The picture doesnt' tell the whole story what is behind the sinks? could it have been put there? If it isnt' a violation for being in the shower space it is a violation of not being installed in a workman like manner. It is becoming to familar looking in our trade to see work that is being done by people put out on their own, before they are electricians. I don't mean to be harsh just honest.

This is a very accurate statement. I am always having to deal with a wall full of vent pipes , waterlines , load bearing posts, etc. who knows what is in that wall. I asked a local inspector the other day about how he interprets code issues and his response was," I try to think about what is the intent of the code." Anyone who thinks moving that receptacle 3" to the left is going to make it even "a tiny bit safer" HAS LOST HIS OR HER MIND. If you can set the toaster on the edge of , or in , the tub while plugged into the counter receptacle installed in the mirror or out of the mirror how is it safer ?????????
Sometimes people don't think we are competent enough to judge what is safe vs unsafe. How is it we can be trusted to wire the complete house but we are not competent to judge that a receptacle is no more or less hazardous being moved 3" ?
Don't forget every time an inspector gets his pantys in a wad it cost us money.
 

lpelectric

Senior Member
M. D. said:
The language you used " I would have the installer " does not sound like a suggestion but rather a direction . Sorry if it would just be your preference to see it somewhere else ,.. now if would be so kind as to sign the card I'll be on my way:smile: :smile:

I would gladly sign off on the installation I've suggested, since it is permitted at 210.52(D) Exception. :smile:
 

lpelectric

Senior Member
electricmanscott said:
If I was the installer I would thank you for the suggestion and have you sign off on the way it is.

And I would thank you for your cooperation and readily sign off once you moved it to the front as permitted in 210.52(D) Exception. :smile:
 

M. D.

Senior Member
lpelectric said:
I would gladly sign off on the installation I've suggested, since it is permitted at 210.52(D) Exception. :smile:

That ain't a suggestion and you are wrong.
 

lpelectric

Senior Member
M. D. said:
That ain't a suggestion and you are wrong.

Care to elaborate?
  • "Suggesting" that an installer remove the receptacle and relocate it to a place clearly allowed by the code seems to me to be a good deed. If you prefer to call it "directing" the installer, that's fine. If the installer didn't take my suggestion and the installation remained in non-compliance, then it becomes a "direction".
  • You're right that I would not allow the receptacle where it is shown in the photo. One need not be very bright-headed to figure out that a receptacle is placed adjacent to a lav to provide power for toothbrushes, shavers, etc. and to minimize the probability of someone running a lead cord in the event a receptacle was not readily available. To the extent possible, I work with all parties involved to see that the intent of the code is met; namely a receptacle is adjacent to the lav, and that that receptacle is placed outside of the tub enclosure area.
  • Nowhere in the code, to my knowledge, is it required to have a receptacle located adjacent to a tub enclosure. I don't think code panel members or the industry at large are teasing people into using 120 volt appliances within the tub.
  • One need not be too bright-headed to figure out that the small platform immediately surrounding and an integral part of the structure that holds the tub in place, is part of the tub space. Play with words all you want. Because an electrician would want to wrangle over whether an outlet is "above" the actual tub, when the structure holding the tub is part of the tub enclosure....just indicates to me an unwillingness to be a part of the solution...and remain a part of the problem....not the kind of electrician I would develop any respect for.
  • I've been doing electrical inspections since 1984 and this forum is my first experience with installers who resist moving receptacles to the safest position possible within this age-old given scenario.
  • :smile:
 

M. D.

Senior Member
lpelectric said:
Care to elaborate?
  • Nowhere in the code, to my knowledge, is it required to have a receptacle located adjacent to a tub enclosure. I don't think code panel members or the industry at large are teasing people into using 120 volt appliances within the tub.

Nowhere is it prohibited you mean ,..unless it is "directly" over it of course,.. which it ain't
 
I'm with LPELECTRIC on this one. Everything isn't always black and white sometimes you have to use common sense. I don't know all of the ins and outs of why that outlet is there but I would be willing to bet it was because the person who did it has never had to put one in the backsplash. Most likely because he wasn't trained properly and maybe has never done anything but wire houses. Yet we call him an electrician.
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
sparkygriffin said:
I'm with LPELECTRIC on this one. Everything isn't always black and white sometimes you have to use common sense. I don't know all of the ins and outs of why that outlet is there but I would be willing to bet it was because the person who did it has never had to put one in the backsplash. Most likely because he wasn't trained properly and maybe has never done anything but wire houses. Yet we call him an electrician.


How do you know the HO didn't want the receptacle in the backsplash? Anyways its fine where it is, its not above the tub so its not a violation... time to move on to the next one... holy crap you guys KILL me!
 
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