quick question about removal of wire

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Hi i'm new to the forum and was wondering if i could get a little help looking through the codebook for something.

I'm doing a project for school about kitchen circuit troubleshooting. My question is:

If the wire (12-2) is able to be taken out of the wall is there a code saying that it must be done? the length of wire runs from one 20amp receptacle to another and is damaged (screw through wire, Melted insulation, or staple driven to hard)

i've spent the better part of 1 day looking for something about this and wanted to know if there is a code. I really don't want to mess this part up on my senior project so if you could possible quote the code it would help.....


thanks,
David
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
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Right here.
There is a code definition of abandoned cable, but it seems like only local amendments that would require it to actually be removed. In your example, the typical approach would be to nip the conductors off flush at the box and forget about it.
 
that is what i thought but i'm still looking

i'll look at the definition...i've literally been sitting here for like total 5 hours looking for something
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
Co-op Student 1 said:
that is what i thought but i'm still looking

i'll look at the definition...i've literally been sitting here for like total 5 hours looking for something

Save you eyes , it isn't there. And welcome to the forum :)
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
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Co-op Student 1 said:
thanks alot....are there any codes i should be weery of while doing this project?
Just the one's between the front and back cover. ;)

Could you provide a little better idea of the scope of this project?
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
The requirements for removing abandoned wiring is in 640.3, 645.5(6), 725.3(B), 760.3(A), 770.3(A), and some more chapter 7 and 8 article sections, these sections do not pertain to chapter 3 wiring methods, i.e. NM cables.

Roger
 
problem: Customers kitchen circuit trips. The customer resets the breaker and half of the receptacles in the kitchen do not work.

I have possible problems as loose connections (terminal screw, wire nut), Melted wire insulation, short in circuit behind wall (nail, screw etc.)

thats the basic problem.....the objective is to describe why each is a problem and the best way to solve them. I have done all that but abandoning was one of my options and wasn't quite sure if NEC required removing the wire.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
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So the exercise is to guess all the possible things that could cause the 1/2 the recs to not work after the breaker is reset, and describe how you'd repair it? A bad backstab is the #1 suspect. Very, very rare to find failed cables inside a wall where the overcurrent protective device was otherwise properly sized.
 

John Arendt

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
"Bad splice" as opposed to "bad backstab", as kitch is supposed to be 20 amp, #12. Also, bad GFI receptacle should be considered. Also, is the breaker truly "reset"? The short in the circuit would prevent resetting the cb, unless the 'short' was burned thru, or otherwise cleared. Burned wiring within a wall is a rarity.

Also, check 'hot' to ground to determine if it's an 'open' neutral splice.
 
If this is a hypothetical question, there is another hypothetical answer.
As the circuit breaker was returned to its closed position, the reason only half of the circuit came back on is the phase (energized) circuit conductor "fused" clear.

*Fused clear - burned until it opened.
 
so what you all are saying is that a backstab is the most likely problem? I thought that receptacles of today did not accept 12awg into the backstab.

I planned on having the wire burned through from an arc on a screw? good idea?
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
Co-op Student 1 said:
so what you all are saying is that a backstab is the most likely problem? I thought that receptacles of today did not accept 12awg into the backstab.
If this is an exercise, you need to consider all the possibilities. Consider that the kitchen may have been wired with 14, or that the kitchen was wired with 12, but with the old devices that did take 12 in the stab holes. The exercise, I assume, did not indicate the age of the installation.
 
no age of installation was never mentioned

i kind of wish that the problem had more detail. But then again its a presentation if front of 2 experts and 2 teachers

i'm assuming the kitchen was wired recently and has been wired with 12 wire.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
Co-op Student 1 said:
i'm assuming the kitchen was wired recently and has been wired with 12 wire.
I don't know what your school's rules are, but when you're in the field you never assume anything. It is entirely possible that after you reset that breaker now you also have a GFCI to find and reset. You'd think that GFCI would be in the kitchen, but in an old home, if one exists, it could be anywhere. I found one recently in a 17 year old home that had a peninsular counter built up against it. I had to cut a hole in the lower cupboard to access it.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
Here's a handy tip... if the hot and the neutral are both open, you're more than likely hunting a tripped GFCI. If just one or the other is open, you're likely hunting a failed connection of some sort.
 
Yea i'll include this into the presentation aswell i'm kinda glad i'm getting more info than wat i need b/c this will make my presentation that much better..

Im working on my powerpoint now and i'm trying to put in all the "what if's"
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
Co-op Student 1 said:
Im working on my powerpoint now and i'm trying to put in all the "what if's"
If you were working for me, and you two-wayed me and told me that you reset a kitchen breaker and now you still don't have power in the recs, these are the some of the possibilities I'd ask you to check:
  • Confirm power at breaker load side terminal. Possible burned breaker to buss connection, or possible lost phase for the whole house, just noticed in the kitchen first. Could also be bad breaker, but that is rare. A meter check will quickly confirm
  • Confirm whether you have an open hot, open neutral, or both.
  • If both open, hunt a tripped gfci visually or with fox and hound.
  • if one or the other open, trace with fox and hound and take apart receptacles on both sides of where signal stops and visually examine and take meter readings for voltage.
  • examine panel schedule for clues whether this circuit makes stops elsewhere in the home.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Its not a fair question without knowing more.1: has it ever worked ? 2:has anyone been working on house just before this happened. 3: has everything been unpluged.To trip without a load likely means someone put a screw thru it.If half of them came back on it is safe to say the short has melted open and not you have new problem.Good luck
 
Seeing as i'm only just now getting into the trade i do have alot of questions that may seem "stupid" or common sense but bare with me if at all possible.

A dedicated circuit doesn't need to be used for a kitchen? I know that you must assume that anything is possible, see all options, but that is just another question to add...so i know for this presentation.

more to add in a minute so your probably gonna reply before i can....i'm trying to add to the presentation and reply at the same time.
 
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