GEOTHERMAL FURNACE

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realolman

Senior Member
a refrigerator compresses a gas into a smaller space..... It blows the heat away out the back of the refrigerator and then allows the gas to expand into a larger space... this allows the expanded gas to absorb heat... which it does ...from the stuff you put in the refrigerator.

You put water into your freezer, and the expanded gas sucks the heat out of it . when the compressor compresses the gas, the heat from the water is blown out the back of the refrigerator.

... the circulating water absorbs the heat from the ground.....the "geothermal refrigerator" in your basement absorbs the heat from the circulating water and blows it out the back... into your house.

since the earth is warmed from the sun it's a kind of solar heat that actually works in cold climates. The compression of the gas, and the pumping of the water require 1/3 to 1/4 the cost for electricity that it would take for the electricity to "produce" the heat that is received in the house ... taken from the earth... taken from the sun.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
a refrigerator compresses a gas into a smaller space..... It blows the heat away out the back of the refrigerator and then allows the gas to expand into a larger space... this allows the expanded gas to absorb heat... which it does ...from the stuff you put in the refrigerator.

You put water into your freezer, and the expanded gas sucks the heat out of it . when the compressor compresses the gas, the heat from the water is blown out the back of the refrigerator.

... the circulating water absorbs the heat from the ground.....the "geothermal refrigerator" in your basement absorbs the heat from the circulating water and blows it out the back... into your house.

since the earth is warmed from the sun it's a kind of solar heat that actually works in cold climates. The compression of the gas, and the pumping of the water require 1/3 to 1/4 the cost for electricity that it would take for the electricity to "produce" the heat that is received in the house ... taken from the earth... taken from the sun.

All of our energy comes from the sun at some point, even fossil fuels, it just so happens that the energy was trapped in these fuels millions of years ago.
 

SAC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
All of our energy comes from the sun at some point, even fossil fuels, it just so happens that the energy was trapped in these fuels millions of years ago.

Actually, I think that much of our heat comes from internal fission reactions, and left over heat from the forming of the planet (which, I guess could be said comes from the sun since that is what pulled everything around here together):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient

Just curious, does anyone in MA have any experience with this geothermal heating? I've been considering looking into this when it is time to replace my oil furnace. I have a well for domestic, and was wondering if I could use that as a source/sink instead of a buried closed loop. Or is that forbidden in MA? :)
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
i would think that if you are using a coolant in the system it could be a issue of possible contamination.
 

SAC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
i would think that if you are using a coolant in the system it could be a issue of possible contamination.

Absolutely - which is the reason why I wonder if MA allows this. A leak in the exchanger and there is refrigerant being deposited directly into the well. Is that bad? :) I just can't see pumping that much potable water up to just "flush it". Maybe closed loop is the only real option?
 

Open Neutral

Senior Member
Location
Inside the Beltway
Occupation
Engineer
So, there is no cooling tower in this type of system?

There is one of three or four kinds:
  1. A closed loop horizontal field - HDPE pipe buried ~6' down under a field, parking lot, etc.
  2. ...vertical field.... wells with U loops dropped down and packed with mud.
  3. heat exchanger in bottom of pond
  4. open loop: water in from source, dumped out after. Banned in many areas as a waste of ground water. Further, heat exchangers get corroded/crudded up.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Absolutely - which is the reason why I wonder if MA allows this. A leak in the exchanger and there is refrigerant being deposited directly into the well. Is that bad? :) I just can't see pumping that much potable water up to just "flush it". Maybe closed loop is the only real option?

Refrigerant not under pressure evaporates to a gas - I don't think there is much risk to contamination of water supply from refrigerant. The media in the loop could be an antifreeze which could be a higher risk for contamination but they do make non toxic antifreeze products.

There is one of three or four kinds:
  1. A closed loop horizontal field - HDPE pipe buried ~6' down under a field, parking lot, etc.
  2. ...vertical field.... wells with U loops dropped down and packed with mud.
  3. heat exchanger in bottom of pond
  4. open loop: water in from source, dumped out after. Banned in many areas as a waste of ground water. Further, heat exchangers get corroded/crudded up.

I have open loop system - during growing season I usually do discharge water onto lawn, you do need to move sprinkler often as there is a lot of water. As far as a waste of ground water that really depends on what kind of ground water supply there is. Where I live it is plentiful. The farmers use much more water than I will (and not very efficiently) for irrigating crops. There are more efficient ways to irrigate crops but they are much more expensive and water supply is strong enough here to not justify it.
 

Open Neutral

Senior Member
Location
Inside the Beltway
Occupation
Engineer
[coolent leaks]
Absolutely - which is the reason why I wonder if MA allows this. A leak in the exchanger and there is refrigerant being deposited directly into the well. Is that bad? :) I just can't see pumping that much potable water up to just "flush it". Maybe closed loop is the only real option?

First, there are ""DX"" systems that bury the refrigerant copper lines. I think that scheme is insane; the copper shall pinhole, the oil will leak. Seems multiple State EPA's agree and ixnay same.

Most systems bury a HDPE pipe water loop. ISTM it's PE-3408 but don't quote me. In the pipe there is water and "friendly" antifreeze, i.e. propylene glycol, NOT ethylene glycol.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
[coolent leaks]


First, there are ""DX"" systems that bury the refrigerant copper lines. I think that scheme is insane; the copper shall pinhole, the oil will leak. Seems multiple State EPA's agree and ixnay same.

Most systems bury a HDPE pipe water loop. ISTM it's PE-3408 but don't quote me. In the pipe there is water and "friendly" antifreeze, i.e. propylene glycol, NOT ethylene glycol.

But even if if should leak there is only the amount of contaminants contained in the system available to leak, unlike an oil pipeline, or a underground fuel tank that keeps getting refilled as its contents get consumed.

How much hazardous materials leaks out of automobiles that need repairs on our roads every day?
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Even if it is legal in MA for an open loop or pump and dump, make sure your well can handle the demand. Constant cycling of an oversized pump with to small a pressure tank can cause grief, or to little water is obviously another.

As Kwired says we have more than enough water here and if the proposed undergound oilsand pipeline springs a leak, the water won't be good for anything else anyway.

(Short burst of PO may be deleted as mods see fit)
 

Open Neutral

Senior Member
Location
Inside the Beltway
Occupation
Engineer
But even if if should leak there is only the amount of contaminants contained in the system available to leak, unlike an oil pipeline, or a underground fuel tank that keeps getting refilled as its contents get consumed.

A crude or petroleum products pipeline is ~6 ft down. The geothermal well is down in the aquifer where the water we need to drink is, too.

At least in MD, geothermal wells are inspected and licensed by the state, same as water supply wells.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
A crude or petroleum products pipeline is ~6 ft down. The geothermal well is down in the aquifer where the water we need to drink is, too.

At least in MD, geothermal wells are inspected and licensed by the state, same as water supply wells.

If school and my memory serves me correctly, you can wade in some of our aquifer to the North and West a bit.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A crude or petroleum products pipeline is ~6 ft down. The geothermal well is down in the aquifer where the water we need to drink is, too.

At least in MD, geothermal wells are inspected and licensed by the state, same as water supply wells.

And how much supply of contaminants can come from a single geothermal heating system as compared to a pipeline or even fuel tanks at the local gas station that are constantly being refilled?

We contaminate our environment just by breathing and excreting wastes, but nature has a way of dealing with it. Nature was not prepared for industrial contaminants that are similar.

I have no problem with inspecting the well, just saying the amount of potential contamination from a single system is not much of an environmental impact, and even when they pass inspection accidents do happen.
 
It was a carrier furnace with two circuits required for this piece of equipment. It was a 25 amp dp breaker and a 60 amp dp breaker with a 10-2, and 6-2 respectively. (There is a single circuit adaptor you can buy, so you only have to run a 60 amp wire.)

There is also a compressor that takes a 40 amp circuit as well. It has a line/load. The load goes to 2 low voltage pumps. It was a great job! It costed something like 36,000 for those interested
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It was a carrier furnace with two circuits required for this piece of equipment. It was a 25 amp dp breaker and a 60 amp dp breaker with a 10-2, and 6-2 respectively. (There is a single circuit adaptor you can buy, so you only have to run a 60 amp wire.)

There is also a compressor that takes a 40 amp circuit as well. It has a line/load. The load goes to 2 low voltage pumps. It was a great job! It costed something like 36,000 for those interested

If you use the single circuit adapter your supply circuit likely needs to be 80 or 90 amps not 60. It needs to be able to handle the same load as both of the smaller circuits added together.
 
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