"Not in my town" Still Applies

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76nemo

Senior Member
Location
Ogdensburg, NY
ArcNSpark said:
Energize said:
Ok, 5 pages of some discussion, some tirades, and some information, yet no one has spoken with the inspector directly.

Has it ever entered anyone's mind that perhaps the GC mis-interpreted the inspector or did not understand the inspector?QUOTE]

I've also experienced, on many occasions, GC's asking for extras under the guise of "the inspector said you need it."


Okay, how do you think I should go about calling the insurance agent and tell him politely that painting your SEU drop does not make it "unprotected from UV", in a professional manner?

Say you did a walk through with the insurance agent on what he wanted to see done, and he looked you dead in the eye and told you that the guys SEU cable is no longer UV protected because it was painted, could you honestly keep a straight face, and kindly ask him to explain himself? My first response would have to be "Really", or "Seriously?", but I highly doubt I could keep that in a non-sarcastic tone.
 

John Arendt

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Trevor:

"I agree, and we have them here too. Fortunately for us there's a hotline to call the AHJ for backup. She will even ask for the inspector's phone number to straighten him out if he's way off base."
__________________
"Trevor" aka Rob

Yes, she is an advocate....for the compliance with the UCC/NEC. But...as said by someone else above...it's her opinion....and I have not seen any in writing (FTO). The Electrical Sub-Code Official is the AHJ's opinion that counts, as he is the one signing-off on the ticket.

Yes, she is fair, and listens to both sides of the story.

Also, don't forget....there is also the County Board of Appeals, if the debate is worth the fight ($150 filing fee)

As to me...I make every attempt to solve any issues 'in-house'. And...up until a few days ago, I thought all the 'my way or the highway' guys were out of NJ.; that's another story.....

Iwire:
I feel for ya, but.....time constraints have to be considered to solve the situation to get the client in; but....can/could you file an appeal??
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
John Arendt said:
Iwire:
I feel for ya, but.....time constraints have to be considered to solve the situation to get the client in; but....can/could you file an appeal??

Yes, for a price we can go to the State but that will only cost us more money. But we also would like to keep working for this mall as an 'approved' contractor. They always have work going on and if a few GFCI breakers keep that work coming in so be it.

This large mall is in a small town, it is highly likely the inspector is a part timer and has little to worry about. There is not exactly a stampede of applicants to work as low paid part time inspectors for the small towns around MA.

Unless the inspector was forcing us to do something that was unsafe I can not imagine the state would do anymore then say 'Don't do that'.
 

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
raider1 said:
These kind of inspectors make me mad.:mad: They are the ones who give inspectors a bad name.

Chris

Well said my friend....well said. I am surrounded by them. That is why I post occasional questions on this Forum before citing an issue. Let's all talk about it before we create additional, needless costs to the EC.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
goldstar said:
Granted, but a very strong one. If you contact Suzanne and present your case citing code sections, describe the situation, etc. she will be an advocate for you providing you are correct. She will go to the point of contacting the inspector and setting him (her) straight.


That was the point I was trying to make. Is she the actual AHJ? No, but in many cases she's the de facto code enforcer when an inpspector is clearly incorrect. Sorry if I implied she was more than that.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
wirebender said:
I agree the EC needs to talk to the inspector directly. We seem to be crucifying the inspector and all we have to go on is what a GC told an EC. The GC could be confused or simply full of it. I would never take something any non-electrician told me about what an inspector required as fact until I checked it out myself. All it takes is a phone call. IMSO

This is a very good point and why I always tell the GC that if they have a question that I want the EC to call me so that there are no misunderstandings and the EC is not hearing it second hand.

A contractor recently accused me of "making things up" until I showed him the code sections. I told him that I have a huge book of things to look for, I don't have to make things up.

I also agree that if the inspector is doing this, then if you don't do something, he will continue on. Someone needs to step up and call him on the carpet and if he retaliates then you need to do it again and again and go higher and higher up the chain until the problem is resolved.
 

cschmid

Senior Member
I am with you EC should talk with Inspector..yet I agree with Bob small price to pay for continued business..Repeat business is normally good business and getting it comes at different prices..

Now arguing over minimum wiring standards is not good business but who sets the standards above minimum is another issue..so the inspector set a standard higher than the minimum unless we know why he did that we can not assume he is wrong we can how ever say he is not enforcing minimum on this and that he has made a decision to have a higher standard on this Job..

Right or wrong the process to correct is long and expensive and some what controversial..I would how ever talk to EI when I had opportunity..Buy him cup of java and check out the skinny on things with out being judgmental and see what I could learn for the next encounter..much better plan in my book..
 
cowboyjwc said:
I also agree that if the inspector is doing this, then if you don't do something, he will continue on. Someone needs to step up and call him on the carpet and if he retaliates then you need to do it again and again and go higher and higher up the chain until the problem is resolved.


Again, as I said before. If one does not really want to take specific action other than just complain, he/she is just wasting time and probably raising their blood pressure. At that point, write it off and do it as part of business and keep on moving forward.

If one is willing to do something, there are 3 ways I see how to try and handle it.

1. speak directly to the EI. Maybe it will be resolved, maybe not. If not, then go to step 2.

2. If the time involved does not hurt the job timing, then one can take steps to go above the EI's authority and speak to whoever is in charge of appeals. Hopefully it will be resolved in that fashion.
Some are worried to piss off the EI...that always amazes me. I say piss him off, have him stand corrected by the appeals and keep it coming...soon he will only bother those who are afraid.

3. If the appeals process it too lengthy to keep the job going, finish the job as the EI asks. Document all steps and meetings with the EI.
Then take it to appeals on your schedule, even though you may have made the correction. It would be interesting to see what happens.




I have a question.

What would an EC do if the inspector insists on a change to your installation that would create an actual violation of the NEC? Lets say it is a small violation, but one none the less.
If you make the EI's correction, you will own that violation until someone else comes and makes changes to the job..............
 

cschmid

Senior Member
If EI requests you do to something illegal, immoral or unethical then you do your 3 step complaint..In this case he has request a higher safety standard and where in the three mentioned areas does that fall..Is It illegal, Immoral or unethical??It can be view several ways but when is safety considered in any of the above mentioned areas..
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
First off this thread that I started has been a learning experience.

No wonder some posters get frustrated, I feel like I have been talking to a brick wall.

I am the one that started the thread and I am the one that knows the specifics but I swear some of you have been posting without reading my replies. :-? :rolleyes: :-?

Pierre C Belarge said:
Again, as I said before. If one does not really want to take specific action other than just complain, he/she is just wasting time and probably raising their blood pressure.

My blood pressure was and is fine.

If one is willing to do something, there are 3 ways I see how to try and handle it.

1. speak directly to the EI. Maybe it will be resolved, maybe not. If not, then go to step 2.

As I have posted before, I KNOW for a fact that it will not be resolved at the EI level. Just trust me on that OK?

2. If the time involved does not hurt the job timing, then one can take steps to go above the EI's authority and speak to whoever is in charge of appeals. Hopefully it will be resolved in that fashion.

Again....I explained there is only one route of appeal, you have to pay a fee and file an appeal to the State. There is no one to go see, no one to call.

Some are worried to piss off the EI...that always amazes me. I say piss him off, have him stand corrected by the appeals and keep it coming...soon he will only bother those who are afraid.

Again... I explained that the people involved are not 'afraid' to upset anyone.

3. If the appeals process it too lengthy to keep the job going, finish the job as the EI asks.

Bingo, as I have said that is the only option.


Then take it to appeals on your schedule, even though you may have made the correction. It would be interesting to see what happens.

What will happen?

We will have thrown good money after bad, at best the inspector will be told not to do that any more.

We will then be out both the money for the GFCIs and the appeal fee.

It is up to the office to decide how to spend their money and time, I highly doubt they will pursue it.

It is not an ECs job to fix a bad inspector, if it can be done, great, if not that stinks but we are in bussiness to make money, not be police for the state.

What would an EC do if the inspector insists on a change to your installation that would create an actual violation of the NEC? Lets say it is a small violation, but one none the less.

I already addressed that as well, I would not make a violation.

I have been asked by inspectors to make blatant violations, in one case on a fire alarm system. I said I would do what he asked and then did not. (He wanted the end of line resistors soldered on to the terminals :rolleyes: )
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
iwire said:
I am the one that started the thread and I am the one that knows the specifics but I swear some of you have been posting without reading my replies.

Hey why don't you just mind your business alright? :D We were doing just fine here without you butting in. :D
 
Bob
My response was not for you, you have made up your mind.

There are many other people who actually read these posts without responding, yet are looking for direction, therefore my post was for some of them as "guidance", not in the form of "you must do this".


P.S. 1693 viewers and only 71 posts
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Pierre C Belarge said:
Bob
My response was not for you, you have made up your mind.

There are many other people who actually read these posts without responding, yet are looking for direction, therefore my post was for some of them as "guidance", not in the form of "you must do this".


P.S. 1693 viewers and only 71 posts

I'll go along with Pierre.

My question is then, what was the point of the original post? If it was just to rant, I'll go along with that too.

But don't let Marc see it he'll call you a crybaby.:grin:
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Backing down will make you a looser forever.Ask in a nice way for code referance.If he cant or refuses then simply tell him your going over his head if its needed and follow thru.Any retaliation will be met with lawsuit if needed.One complaint means very little but if the chiefs gets them often on 1 inspector things will change.I have done it and the inspector was moved to office work.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
cowboyjwc said:
My question is then, what was the point of the original post?

I was bored and decided to share something I heard that day.

As I already mentioned I am sorry I even brought it up.
 

John Arendt

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Bob: (Iwire)

As an EC, I was where you were a few times & 'solved' the situation as you did.

Fighting the 'good fight' for a 'minimal' cause? Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do; other times...knock down, drag-out, best man win, take no prisoners. I'm with you on this one!

I recently had a local EC call me re: an EI in another town that failed him on a service change; no Article stated & a "DUMB" reason (my word). I said, call the EI, and ask (nicely) for an Article....... Next day, EC met EI at site; said job is 'OK', BUT install a GFI recept at panel location for Final Approval!!

I asked EC....WHY???? No reason given by EI. Rather than persue it EC installed GFI recept at panel!

Appeal in NJ is $150 to County BOA; add in the better part of a day there, parking, and what is the better move? BTW, a disinterested party made a call to the next in command on behalf of the 'We don't like "my way or the highway" guys with their own 'rule' book'.

Enough said....take care

:mad:
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
iwire said:
As I already mentioned I am sorry I even brought it up.

Been there, got the t-shirt. :D

Pierre said:
P.S. 1693 viewers and only 71 posts
That's views, not viewers. Each time someone loads the page, it counts as a view. I imagine the active participants in this thread probably looked at it a time or two before posting, too. :)

I understand what you're saying, just making a minor correction.

iwire said:
What would an EC do if the inspector insists on a change to your installation that would create an actual violation of the NEC? Lets say it is a small violation, but one none the less.
I already addressed that as well, I would not make a violation.
I will confess that I have knowingly installed a violation based on a similar argument from a "my town" inspector. He insisted on receptacle outlets under jetted tubs not being nailed down, and we fought and fought and took it over his head and finally just capitulated. If they want to be idiotic, I'm not going to waste abundant amounts of time fighting them.

The funny thing was, my old foreman roughed in a house down the road a couple months later, forgot where he was, and roughed it in to the idiot's standard, and nabbed a red tag for it. :roll: :grin:
 

cschmid

Senior Member
I am going to stand with Bob on this issue..He made the correct decision..

You can not be force me to break the law, you choose so..they can request but you have to choose to comply with the request..

I just ran into situation with inspector similar to Bobs was cheaper and easier to comply then fight and it was no big deal..Just couple extra safety measure he wanted for owner convience..Inspector told owner in person he wanted them done and owner paid for the extra..

This really not an issue, especially with good inspectors..We should thank good inspectors for their extra effort in public safety..Not discipline them..Disipline bad inspectors who turn head to blatant violations and request violations, them a poor inspectors..
 
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