will the peanut gallery please weigh in here? need opinions on price....

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Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
condo rewire:

2 story, 3 bedroom, 2.5 bath

aluminum wire, remove and replace with copper simpull.
panel on exterior wall.
cookies replaced, no patching or painting.
existing boxes
new devices
end unit, one common wall
1,400 sq ft.

no labor other than my own

$5,000

high, low, ok... whatchhoo guys think?
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Is there drywall on the walls and ceilings? What is the attic space like or is there no attic space?

oh, yeah. fully drywalled.
first floor is joists on 12" center,
second floor lid is no attic space. flat lid.
no insulation anywhere in the house.

i'm figuring some of this stuff, i can cut 6" handholes
and pull the new stuff in with the old aluminum romex
as a pull string. most of it will be fresh fishing, i'm suspecting.

i'm figuring 100+ hand holes, closed up with two sticks
of lath, and the original cookie to close with. it won't be
that much, but you know how these things go.... :-/
it always takes more holes than it *should*......

there will be additions i suspect. the oven and large
feeds will not be replaced. just branch circuits and lighting.
probably have some can lights added.... as long as you
have to cut holes.......

AFCI for the bedrooms, of course.
 
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gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
oh, yeah. fully drywalled.
first floor is joists on 12" center,
second floor lid is no attic space. flat lid.
no insulation anywhere in the house.

i'm figuring some of this stuff, i can cut 6" handholes
and pull the new stuff in with the old aluminum romex
as a pull string. most of it will be fresh fishing, i'm suspecting.

i'm figuring 100+ hand holes, closed up with two sticks
of lath, and the original cookie to close with. it won't be
that much, but you know how these things go.... :-/
it always takes more holes than it *should*......

there will be additions i suspect. the oven and large
feeds will not be replaced. just branch circuits and lighting.
probably have some can lights added.... as long as you
have to cut holes.......

AFCI for the bedrooms, of course.

We don't do a lot of resi work, but my techs cut in a lot of stuff for adding alarm devices. I think you might be a little light considering all the hand holes you think you need. That many holes is going to slow down your pulls a fair bit too. Just my 2 cents.
 

normbac

Senior Member
depends on your company overhead if you are a two man shop and need the work there should be a decent profit if all goes well depends how often and where they stapled
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
RRP

RRP

aluminum wire..Pre 78 structure..have you checked for lead paint?

Save time by opening up a lot of drywall. The wood will be hard. Give yourself some room on tools and bits.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
I fear you are grossly underestimating the scope of the job. A few points to consider:

1) You need lead certification, etc., for this job;

2) Romex won't pull through if it's been properly stapled;

3) If the place is older than, say, 1960, then there might be blocking within every stud bay- meaning you really need to open the walls;

4) With this scale of job you might be required to meet current code- which means lots of new circuits, "Energy code" lighting, etc.; and,

5) As a condo, the 'owner' might not be the guy who owns that particular unit, but the condo association.

If you go ahead with the job, you will really want to have a Fein MultiMaster (or one of its' clones). This tool makes very neat holes with little noise and even less airborn dust. I also recommend an impact driver with Irwin Speed-bor Max bits.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I fear you are grossly underestimating the scope of the job.


That's what I was thinking.

Even at best with only spending say $1500 in materials and so forth that only leaves $3500 for labor ( that may be a real stretch ).

So $3500 in labor for a job that could easily be 160 man hours or more. You end up with about $20 an hour and that's if you are lucky.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I fear you are grossly underestimating the scope of the job. A few points to consider:

1) You need lead certification, etc., for this job;

2) Romex won't pull through if it's been properly stapled;

3) If the place is older than, say, 1960, then there might be blocking within every stud bay- meaning you really need to open the walls;

4) With this scale of job you might be required to meet current code- which means lots of new circuits, "Energy code" lighting, etc.; and,

5) As a condo, the 'owner' might not be the guy who owns that particular unit, but the condo association.

If you go ahead with the job, you will really want to have a Fein MultiMaster (or one of its' clones). This tool makes very neat holes with little noise and even less airborn dust. I also recommend an impact driver with Irwin Speed-bor Max bits.

Something I didn't consider. Does the tenant "own" inside the walls? Depending on the association rules, he/she might only own to the paint on the interior walls.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
That's what I was thinking.

Even at best with only spending say $1500 in materials and so forth that only leaves $3500 for labor ( that may be a real stretch ).

So $3500 in labor for a job that could easily be 160 man hours or more. You end up with about $20 an hour and that's if you are lucky.


thank you one and all for your input, both here, and in private messages.

yep.. looks a quart low on my initial swag.

to address some of the points:

house is about 1975. lead paint is an issue.
i have a hepa vac certified for the level of activity i'm going to
be doing.

plan was to use my spiffy doodle ideal circuit tracer to map the
walls, so i could mark them with pencil where the horizontal runs
are drilled. i open up a 6" hole everywhere i need to, above each box,
where the romex turns... you can get in with dykes and yank the
staples

fireblocks get a 6" cutout over each one, and the fein tool notches
them nicely. after the thing is lassoed, the cookie goes right back over
the top. for closing the cookies not over wood, i cut surveyors stakes
in half, and use two 1' long pieces to lath in the cookies over open air.

this house was wired by baum electric, and is stapled to within an
inch of it's life. count on it.

where i have to get thru the plate, there is a hole cut in the wall, and one
in the ceiling. i'll use a right angle drill on a festool drill, with a short bit.
i've already got the short three fluke bits. whole bunch of them, sharp.

there's gonna be a ton of holes cut. i use one of those adjustable cutters,
with a dust catcher, and a hepa vac.

i'll have to look at the association definitions, but what was typical in this
area at that time, was that you owned all the house subsystems, and
the right to access them.

if ownership stops at the paint, then i'll craft a nice letter for the property
owners representative to use to get the homeowners association to pay
for replacing the wiring, 'cause someone owns it, and if it isn't the homeowner.....
it's the association.

and, this was a preliminary over the phone approximation, with the caveat
that we'd have to walk the house together and define the scope of work.

the customer is an excellent and straightforward guy to work with, and i'm
going to print out some of your replies and bring them with me.

then we will decide what we are gonna do.....

thanks again for your input.
 

PEDRO ESCOVILLA

Senior Member
Location
south texas
if you spend 2500 on mat'l, that only leaves 2500 for labor, tools, and whatever else you need. at labor only, at 40 bucks an hour, you've got 62 and 1/2 hrs. short brother, way short. everyone elses comments make good sense also, especially blocking in stud bay, hand holes, patcing, etc. if you have 3 guys to do the work, maybe complete in 120 man hours. just a guess. i cut my teeth doing stuff like this and the first 3 holes i drilled in ONE HOUSE I HIT BRICK! (VERMONT) old house, any way read it all, take it in and make a decision. i'd try to go with time and materials if i could. good luck with it
 

Strife

Senior Member
You assuming there's no staples?, what about the cross 2x4 at about 5-6' high?
In my opinion WAY TO LOW.
Did you look at the AFCI prices? can't touch a panel with an average resi breakers for less than 500-600 dollars, and that's only the panel.
I'm doing a house right now, time only, at $ 50/hr. Granted is a little bigger than what you have, but I'm on 90hrs right now and still got a good 50-60hrs. The materials are already close to 4K.
Funny thing also, priced a HUGE house for a "friend", came out with 48K, he's got over 100 recessed fixtures, 400A service, 6 baths, 5 bedrooms and 2 kitchens. i told him I'm assuming everything, but I can probably save him 10K-15K going cheaper on other things. He told me he got a price for 18K, I couldn't figure how the heck someone would come up with something that low. I guess I got my answer.

, i can cut 6" handholes
and pull the new stuff in with the old aluminum romex
as a pull string. most of it will be fresh fishing, i'm suspecting.
 
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Strife

Senior Member
$ 1,500.00 for materials? are you kidding?
I'm sure he mentioned AFCI's in the OP. Panel along with AFCI's will be close to half that.

That's what I was thinking.

Even at best with only spending say $1500 in materials and so forth that only leaves $3500 for labor ( that may be a real stretch ).

So $3500 in labor for a job that could easily be 160 man hours or more. You end up with about $20 an hour and that's if you are lucky.
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
The last time I rewired a home I made a lot of holes like your thinking of doing. After getting most of the way through the project, we(myself and homeowner) started cutting the bottom 2-3' of sheetrock off the walls, things went MUCH MUCH faster. After that I swore I'd never do holes again on a rewire. The homeowner agreed.

I'm telling ya, don't do it if you don't have too!

The sheetrocker can tape a straight joint just as fast, if not faster, than a bunch of holes.
 

powerslave

Senior Member
Location
Land of Lincoln
we rewired a1500 sq ft 1960 home two years ago. Cut hand holes and then some but didn't have to replace cookies as you call them customer had drywall guys do that. Pulled out old romex what we could and left the rest. New Romex in walls and conduit in unfinished basement. Lots of dust but it was before RRP. Cleaned up after ourselves but not responsible for dust final cleanup. Customer had separate company do that. Included electric stove and cooktop but located right above panel. New meter pedestal and 200 amp panel. Electric dryer and water heater in unfinished basement. After all was said and done just over $17,000.00 for electric alone.
 

powerslave

Senior Member
Location
Land of Lincoln
Don't underestimate the man hours it's gonna take. I know it's easy to do in this economy but you can quickly bury yourself and lose money in your quest to stay busy. Best advice my mentor told me is being busy doesn't equal making money.
 
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