ABB quality

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jaykool

Member
Location
NE
Any personal opinions about ABB switchgear (quality, service, etc.).

I am used to specifying C-H, Square D, Siemens...the usual suspects.

ABB gave us some low pricing for double ended subs. They are UL listed...right?

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
IMO, and many others ABB is the best for quality for most stuff, however, everyone has had some not so good products.

What are you looking for?
 

jatrottpe

Member
Location
NJ
ABB is not generally known as a Low Cost Provider of Electrical Equipment.
Make sure the unit priced is the same as the unit specified.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Speaking from inside "the industry" I can assure you that nobody has any secret recipe to making their gear much less expensively than anyone else. At any given time any manufacturer can get an order from anyone else if they want it bad enough. Pricing has to do with 2 things:

1) Factory loading. If the factory production schedule is full and/or you want it quick, you will pay through the nose. If the factory is hungry or you are willing to wait 6 months, you can get a good deal. Think in terms of seats on airplanes. How much do you pay for a seat on a plane when you buy it 2 months in advance vs buying it the day before you need to fly? Same issue. Sometimes the factories get empty schedules because of some QC issues or design changes that cost them orders for a long time, that's the only time to be concerned for your project quality. Ask for references of both recently installed projects and some that are in process right now. Then ask competitors if they know of any horror stories that might account for low factory loading. Sometimes though, you just hit it right and they really want that order.

2) Who made the biggest mistake. When you get a price that is more than about 10% lower that the next one, chances are there is a misinterpretation somewhere or something is being left out, by accident or maybe even on purpose. I have known salesmen who deliberately make "mistakes" that they know will not be discovered until way late in the game, knowing that causing further delay in the project will cost the contractor more in penalties than if they just pony up to pay the "real" price later. Check very very carefully and be prepared for someone expecting to get a lot of concessions on specs, or expecting to get some expensive change orders because they see a glaring error by the specifying engineer and are not pointing it out in advance. Sometimes CEs let them get away with that, sometimes they have "weasel words" that can shift the blame onto the contractor for errors and omissions.

Other than that, if anybody made poor quality products they would either be out of the business or relegated to being bottom feeders. ABB is neither, as is the same for the others you mentioned.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
we use abb from time to time. never had any real problems with it. never found it to be especially cheap though, except for certain items like large frame circuit breakers.

we have found there can be huge variations in the pricing of such things from vendor to vendor. some manufacturers are just more competitive in certain areas.

it is also true that vender's want to sell certain things, often stuff that does not have to be engineered is much cheaper than virtually the same thing that requires engineering. sometimes things like specifying the brand of a fuse can cause the price to increase a lot. if your end user wants a specific brand of fuse, and that is not the brand the MCC or switchboard vendor wants to supply, take what they give you and switch them out in the field.

we also take a lot of off the shelf MCC and switchboard equipment and modify it as needed for a specific project. it is usually much more cost effective than getting exactly what you want from the vendor directly.
 
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jaykool

Member
Location
NE
appreciate the feedback. all the vendors were bidding off the same spec. i think ABB just wants our business (approx. 20 double ended subs, 2500kva xfmrs).
 

jaykool

Member
Location
NE
basically, i am a green EE in charge of an exstg plant area.

we are going thru huge expansion and my engineering mgr asked my opinion on ABB subs due to low bid.

i ran into a problem once with siemens gear...for some reason could not provide us 1600A breakers with .95 LTD setting...the breakers went in increments of .10, caused a bunch of headaches and money. not a big fan of foreign vendors.

but it seems like everyone has had good experience with ABB gear. i have not ran into any problems with ABB robotics or substation transformers.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
jaykool said:
i ran into a problem once with siemens gear...

You and everyone else, ze french breeeekars stink.

jaykool said:
but it seems like everyone has had good experience with ABB gear. i have not ran into any problems with ABB robotics or substation transformers.

Yeo, great stuff, just as mentioned not know for "low bid". Then again most of the 480V stuff made now by everyone is cheap plastic junk, dont make them to last like they used to.
 

Nick

Senior Member
Just an FYI. ABB makes most of the large transformers around for everyone. They just slap a GE, C-H etc tag on them and ship them out the door.
 

jatrottpe

Member
Location
NJ
If you are having them (or any other equipment vendor) provide complete system integration for your equipment (bus, XFRM, Gear, etc), make sure you still conduct thorough drawing reviews and make sure all of the pieces are coordinated. Just because all the equipment comes from the same company does not mean it is engineered/designed in the same building/city. It is not uncommon for all the equipment to show up and not line up as designed. It eventually gets fixed but you can be left with schedule delay headaches and playing the blame game across different divisions of the equipments makers company. A drawing approval conference at the equipments project manager location with representatives from each division involved will go a long way to achieve proper coordination amongst the pieces.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
jatrottpe said:
If you are having them (or any other equipment vendor) provide complete system integration for your equipment (bus, XFRM, Gear, etc), make sure you still conduct thorough drawing reviews and make sure all of the pieces are coordinated. Just because all the equipment comes from the same company does not mean it is engineered/designed in the same building/city. It is not uncommon for all the equipment to show up and not line up as designed. It eventually gets fixed but you can be left with schedule delay headaches and playing the blame game across different divisions of the equipments makers company. A drawing approval conference at the equipments project manager location with representatives from each division involved will go a long way to achieve proper coordination amongst the pieces.

Excellent advice!
 

nawao

Member
Location
Abuja - Nigeria
ABB order form

ABB order form

zog said:
Excellent advice!
I will add:
Make sure when you place any order to mention every and all of your requirements, because when ABB replies you with their offer/quotation (a very complete and detailed document), they will exactly comply with it and nothing else. Once you have accepted it, will be too late for changes or modifications on less you pay big extra money.
On the other hand the technical support is unique and they will never let you down, as is often the case with other small companies offering equivalent systems at cheaper price. Many of them depend on few engineers only. The simple fact that one of them leaves the organisation make sometimes that some projects remain without further support.
This can never happen with ABB.
 

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
On MV gear, ABB in the past has had issues with racking mechanisms. Siemens has typically had door alignment issues. Both cause maintenance irritation. Make sure the ABB trip units have the functionality and capability that your looking for as there can be a huge variation between manufacturers, GE's and Siemens IMO are not worthy. The only other thing, is make sure the gear is either ANSI only rated or as a minimum dual ANSI/IEC rated.

A good indication right now is schedule. Everybody is pretty much quoting 24 weeks on LV power switchgear due to factory loading and engineering. Even if you have LD's in place in the contract, and they max them out, they will have no incentive to get the gear to your site when you need it. Make sure there is plenty of time scheduled for drawing prep, drawing review, manufacturing, shipping, and installation. The tighter the schedule the more prone to delays.

As mentioned, do not let the manufacturer include his BOM (Bill of Materials) as part of the contract, or allow wording to refer to them as part of the contract. Manufacturers do this to qualify there bid without having to take a bunch of exceptions, becasue exceptions are undesireable. Then it becomes your responsibility to review, the each quote in minute detail, bid prior to awarding contract.
 
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