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Thread: home run grounds hooked in service panel

  1. #1
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    home run grounds hooked in service panel

    After an electrician wired a home for the company I work for I noticed that when I pulled the panel cover off to add in some additional circuits that the grounds from 3 circuits were twisted together from where they enter into the panel to the ground bar and they were terminated to 1 lug. This procedure was done with all the home runs. When I confronted him and told him that this is not leagal he asked me to show him in the code book and I couldn't locate the answer. Can anyone give me the location to this so I can show him where to look?

  2. #2
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    for the ground wires twisted together it pretty common but per breaker box manufacter they will specifed the #'s of wire they allowed in the lug holes but some local area may have addment to the local codes may required seprated ground wire to each ground lug

    i think it stated in 110 but i may be wrong on this part and also in art 250 also but right now i am in middle of changing my codes a little kinda a little messy but try to get up to the speed with next code cycle soon.

    I will let other chime in here too i think they will be more than happy to help you too.

    Merci, Marc
    Marc
    master electrician
    Wisconsin and Paris France

    "Pas de problème, il marche n'est-ce pas?" (No problem, it works doesn't it?)

  3. #3
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    I hate when electricians do that, I'm sure it is because they fancy themselves artists and it looks sooOO much better. I worked with one guy who employed some good ole Yankee ingenuity , and used his cordless drill to twist em up real tight and purdy like.... I asked him what he thought he was accomplishing with this "roping" that the connection to the grounding buss would not??
    His answer was "Nothen I guess man , but it looks great dude"
    Yeah , cost a lot of money though , now and later, especially if you should you need to remove a grounding conductor from that rope of yours.

    Not illegal as long as the terminal accepts multiple wires ,I'm not sure what effects the drill had on the conductors integrity though ,... stretched them a bit thin I'm sure
    "America will never be destroyed from the outside.
    If we falter and lose our freedoms,
    it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

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  4. #4
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    It depends on the listing of the panelboard. UL67 (panelboard standard) permits up to 3-#10 AWG EGC's conductors in a single terminal if the terminal is marked for this purpose. You would need to look at the information on the inside of the panel cover to see how many EGC's are permitted in each hole.
    Rob

    Chief Moderator

    All responses based on the 2011 NEC unless otherwise noted

  5. #5
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    I am not certain but I have not seen terminals in a panelboard that were rated for more than 2 conductors. It is out though since a #6 stranded wire can fit under most lugs--- so whats the difference.

    You cannot do the grounded conductors in that manner.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon
    I am not certain but I have not seen terminals in a panelboard that were rated for more than 2 conductors.
    I haven't seen more than 2 permitted either. But a simple glance at the panel information will determine the exact number permitted.
    Rob

    Chief Moderator

    All responses based on the 2011 NEC unless otherwise noted

  7. #7
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    See 110.14(A). This refers to the panelboard's listing. It would be nice to have a provision in the code for the egc's that was similar in language and intent to that of 408.41. :smile: The problem I occassionaly run into is the untrained installer who attempts to stuff as many egc's as possible under one terminal and leaves only about 1 or 2 threads to "ensure" a thorough connection.
    Answers based on the 2008 NEC Edition when I think to grab that one.

    What you are, you are by accident of birth; what I am, I am by myself. There are and will be a thousand princes; there is only one Beethoven. Ludwig van Beethoven



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by wbalsam1
    The problem I occassionaly run into is the untrained installer who attempts to stuff as many egc's as possible under one terminal and leaves only about 1 or 2 threads to "ensure" a thorough connection.
    Yes but most of the panelboards I have used are rated for #4 wire on the ground bar. So why can you not have many egc's as long as the area is no greater than that of a #4 stranded?

    The only difference I see is user error in ensuring all the wires are under the screw.

  9. #9
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    Siemens allows up to three #14 egc's and two #12's. Why you would twist them is beyond me but it is allowed.
    There are two kinds of people - those smart enough to know they don’t know, and those dumb enough to insist they do.-----Margery Eagan

    Open shop since 1988

  10. #10
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    I've seen that twisting method in panels before too. I've got to admit that it does make for a really nice looking job, in my opinion. They're a little rough to work on down the road, though, if you're removing a cable. I've also seen the bare conductors of SE cable braided inside the panel, just like a woman's hair might be done. That's really neat looking.

    I more often see the #16 reduced grounds in the pre-1967 NM cables twisted together in larger bundles and terminated under the ground bar screw. Here's an interesting tidbit... I've not noticed a ground bar spec yet in a new panel (such as you would use for service upgrades) that lists #16 as a compliant size for the ground bar. This would cause the electrician to pigtail each #16 EGC (or perhaps groups or two or three) to the ground bar with a piece of #14 or #12.

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