3 way switches

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BackInTheHabit

Senior Member
EBFD6 said:
This thread is kinda making me feel bad about getting mad at apprentices for screwing things like this up. Seems to be an awful lot of different ways to accomplish the same thing, and even guys w/ some experience are confused. I never really put much thought into things like this but the more I read I think I might owe an apology to an apprentice or two.:)

Anyone else thinking the same thing?

There are a few different ways to accomplish 3way installations. I don't think that any of us are confused however. I believe most of us do it the way we do it because we were taught that way. I do it the way I do because I was taught many years ago to do it that way. I have also learned the other ways of doing it. In learning the variations of doing it, you will become a better troubleshooter, and in the end a better electrician.

I never really got made at some of my apprentices or employees for screwing things up. More than often I did the same thing when I was learning the trade.

We are all human and we all make mistakes.

Good judgement comes from experience, and alot of that comes from bad judgement.
 

BackInTheHabit

Senior Member
stickboy1375 said:
I dont like what if's. its a waste of time to even think about "what if"

I didn't call it a "What if' but a "Would You Rather" (tomato- tomatoe) i guess

My wife would call that a "hypothetical".

I don't think of it as a waste of time, just good planning. But "To each his own."
 

walkerj

Senior Member
Location
Baton Rouge
BackInTheHabit said:
If you are backfeeding (as I call it) you would have to reidentify the neutral as a hot.


The neutral isn't being used as a hot. It is fed through each box by using wirenuts. Black (hot) feeds first 3way. The black and red of the 14/3 are travellers from box to box. Black in second box is switchleg.

NOTE: My way isn't necessarily the best way, it's just the way I prefer it to be done.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the white wire had to be used as the HOT.:confused:

Edit: Oops I forgot how to read!
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
BackInTheHabit said:
I didn't call it a "What if' but a "Would You Rather" (tomato- tomatoe) i guess

My wife would call that a "hypothetical".

I don't think of it as a waste of time, just good planning. But "To each his own."

I can agree with that.... ;)
 

POWER_PIG

Senior Member
iwire said:
I 'dead end' three ways when I it suits the job.

If the feed is at the fixture all you need is a two wire cable from the fixture to the first three way then a three wire cable to all the other four ways / three way you want.

That is a legal way, it complies with 300.3(B), however there are ways to do it and violate 300.3(B).
OK I give up! how is this gonna work? Reading Bob's post for a while now, Im sure he didn't make a boo boo. Some do call 12/3-( 2 wire ) and 12/4( 3 wire).........maybe thats it?
 

cloudymacleod

Senior Member
iwire said:
I have never done that or even thought about it but I agree that would be legal. That is kind of a 'double dead end 3 way'. :cool:

That would throw me if I was troubleshooting that circuit.
iwire, my house has that same set up, was built back in the 60's. the switch box is a 3 gang, with the switch, in question, controlling the down stairs light, the feed comes into that 3 gang, then a 3-wire going to the light box, then out of the light box with another 3-wire down to the other 3 -way. i found it by troubleshooting an issue, it threw me for a loop.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
POWER_PIG said:
OK I give up! how is this gonna work? Reading Bob's post for a while now, Im sure he didn't make a boo boo. Some do call 12/3-( 2 wire ) and 12/4( 3 wire).........maybe thats it?

You read it right.

Feed at the light

2 wires to the first 3 way from the light and 3 wires to all the other 4 ways and 3 ways.

Dead end at the last.

This is basically a long switch loop. Let's pretend its a house 2wire nm and 3 wire nm-- forget about the ground.

The neutral stays in the light. The feed travels down on the white wire of the 2 wire cable. It then travels through to the last 3way as the point , let's say on the black wire. Thus the white from the two wire cable is taped black and connected to the black on the 3 wire.

The red and whites are the travelers. The black from the 2 wire cable connects to the first 3 way as the point & goes back to the light as the switch leg. Voila--- let there be light.
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
POWER_PIG said:
OK I give up! how is this gonna work? Reading Bob's post for a while now, Im sure he didn't make a boo boo. Some do call 12/3-( 2 wire ) and 12/4( 3 wire).........maybe thats it?
me001.jpg
 

splinetto

Senior Member
Location
Missouri
I like the guys who you go help splice out there house and they wire it so all the spilces are different.... So you have to ask them what in the heck do you have going on here? "OH that is just a 3 wayed outlet, two three wires to the dead ends, a 14/3 homerun, the red going out and a drop for a pull chain in the basement" I guess they just want somebody to ask them how to do it to make them feel special....
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
splinetto said:
I like the guys who you go help splice out there house and they wire it so all the spilces are different.... So you have to ask them what in the heck do you have going on here? "OH that is just a 3 wayed outlet, two three wires to the dead ends, a 14/3 homerun, the red going out and a drop for a pull chain in the basement" I guess they just want somebody to ask them how to do it to make them feel special....


Those are the reasons i'm glad I work alone... never a question...:grin:
 

splinetto

Senior Member
Location
Missouri
It also reminds be of the guy I had working with me.. I would drill the house out (and with 1 wire per hole its alot of drilling with the shotgun) :grin: then I would layout my helper...The house had several sets a three ways and I drilled them out several diff ways depending on what was easiest...Next thing I know he has got the drill out, drilling away, I thought I must of missed some holes...When I went to check his work he changed every 3W to the same way..apparently he only knew 1 way..........
 

POWER_PIG

Senior Member
O crap!! I get it now!! thanks guys for your time to teach an old pig a new trick! This forum is truly refreshing!:smile:
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
Jim W in Tampa said:
What i have found is many electricians only know 1 way to do 3 ways and thats feed at one end and leg at other.No idea why they got hired.

Yep... If you cant draw it on paper then there is no way you can do it in the field...
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Jim W in Tampa said:
What i have found is many electricians only know 1 way to do 3 ways and thats feed at one end and leg at other.No idea why they got hired.

If you look at both boxes, they're wired 'zactly the same. White wires tied together, black from 14/2 to common, red & black from 14/3 to travellers. That's the easiest way to train a cubby.
 

EBFD6

Senior Member
Location
MA
480sparky said:
If you look at both boxes, they're wired 'zactly the same. White wires tied together, black from 14/2 to common, red & black from 14/3 to travellers. That's the easiest way to train a cubby.

I agree, but at some point they need to be able to logically think through the circuit and see that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. We are not talking about complex circuit theory here, a feed, a couple switches, and a light. No matter how they are configured you need to be able to get power from point A to point B.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
EBFD6 said:
I agree, but at some point they need to be able to logically think through the circuit and see that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. We are not talking about complex circuit theory here, a feed, a couple switches, and a light. No matter how they are configured you need to be able to get power from point A to point B.

You expect that? Their logic is more along the lines of "Hey, I can make it work just fine... that makes me a profeshunal 'lectershun."

I understand you point, however. Not only should you be able to install any (legal) method of 3-ways, you should eventually be able to troubleshoot any (legal or non-legal) method.
 
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