Are ungrounded GFCI sockets safe for expensive equipment?

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Chappie

Member
I think I have finally found the right place to get the answer to this question. I can tell you, every electrician I have spoken to has a different answer.

The story so far:

I am buying an older but updated house. The inspection revelaed that some of the sockets were grounded, and some were ungrounded. I went in myself and pulled a few sockets out of the wall and determined that this was the case. A few sockets had newish 3-wire romex, but most were the old 2-wire. To "bring them up to code" (I actually met with the seller's electrician this morning), the 2 wire sockets were replaced with GFCI sockets. More accurately, the socket connected directly to the panel was cheanged to a GFCI socket, and all others on the circuit were changed to standard 3 hole plugs, but were still ungrounded.

After the inspection, I asked that the ungrounded outlets be grounded. The seller, of course, does not want to pay for this, and his electrician has naturally taken his side of the argument. He says that as long as a socket is on a circuit proteced by a GFCI, it is up to code and safe. Further he says, if I just put a surge protector at the socket, any equipment I hook up will be safe.

I know that the code requires such sockets to be labeled "No Equipment Ground", and more than one person has told me that a surge protector is useless on an ungrounded circuit, since a surge has nowhere to go.

So ultimately my question is this: In the event of a surge or other harmful electrical event, can I reasonably expect my equipment to not be damaged if I hook it up to a surge protected, GFCI protected but ungrounded socket?

Thanks in advance,
Chappie
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Chappie said:
. . . his electrician . . . says that as long as a socket is on a circuit proteced by a GFCI, it is up to code and safe.
That much, at least, I can confirm. I do not know how the surge protectors work (i.e., whether an equipment ground is needed for them to properly function). So I can't tell you whether any sensitive electronic equipment might be at risk.
 

mdshunk

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I just wired a new dishwasher last thing today. I'd call it fairly high end, and certainly electronic. The wiring compartment cover had a sticker that said "Warning-must be connected to an electrically grounded circuit". I'd take that to mean that it won't function well when plugged into an old 2-wire GFCI protected circuit, since those circuits aren't electrically grounded.
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I am not so sure, Marc. They would say exactly the same thing, if all they are trying to do is to make it safe for a person to touch the frame, in the event of an internal short circuit. An EGC is supposed to be the component that does that job, but a GFCI can do it also.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
charlie b said:
I am not so sure, Marc. They would say exactly the same thing, if all they are trying to do is to make it safe for a person to touch the frame, in the event of an internal short circuit. An EGC is supposed to be the component that does that job, but a GFCI can do it also.
It said electrically grounded. I'm not sure if being on the load side of a GFCI qualifies as electrically grounded. I don't happen to think it does, so I pulled a new cable.
 

iwire

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It is in my opinion up to code and anything further is strictly a matter of negotiation.

That said you should take a look at 250.114 as there is a whole list of equipment that the NEC requires to be grounded. So while you can legally have GFCI protected ungrounded receptacles the NEC would limit what your supposed to plug into them.
 

iwire

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Location
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charlie b said:
An EGC is supposed to be the component that does that job, but a GFCI can do it also.

250.114(3)(b) requires cord and plug connected dishwasher to be connected to the equipment grounding conductor.

If it was connected by permanent means 250.110 would require a EGC connection.
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
jrclen said:
250.114 (3)b lists information technology equipment as one of those items requiring connection to an EGC.

It sure does, and if you look in the UL white book it is surprising what they consider information technology equipment. It's not just computers.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
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iwire said:
It sure does, and if you look in the UL white book it is surprising what they consider information technology equipment. It's not just computers.
An adding machine qualifies as IT equipnment.
 

Chappie

Member
I don't have a copy of the code in front of me...

Does A big TV and A/V equipment count as IT stuff? THat's mainly what I'm concerned about. It's equipment I've bought over the course of years and could not afford to replace if it were all fried in one whack.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
Chappie said:
Does A big TV and A/V equipment count as IT stuff? THat's mainly what I'm concerned about. It's equipment I've bought over the course of years and could not afford to replace if it were all fried in one whack.
Save all your fried electronic stuff that's ever failed until lightning season, then put in a fat homeowner's insurance claim. :grin:
 

Chappie

Member
I found the code online:

2005

2008

Section 640.7 which deals with audio-amplifying equipment. Can someone read that and translate it for me? Does that say my A/V Reciever should be grounded?

Also, in 406.3D, the ungrounded GFCI receps are required to be marked "no equipment ground". What are the implications of that? Is there any reason to make note of that if it's perfectly ok to plug equipment into it?
 
L

Lxnxjxhx

Guest
Ungrounded surge protectors could protect from a line-to-line surge, but not a line-to-ground surge.
I don't know that anyone sells an ungrounded surge protector.
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Chappie said:
.

After the inspection, I asked that the ungrounded outlets be grounded. The seller, of course, does not want to pay for this, and his electrician has naturally taken his side of the argument.


I take his side as well but for a different reason. You want a house that is up to date with todays codes and technolgy than buy a new house, otherwise buy an old one and YOU bring it up to date. :rolleyes:
 

jrclen

Senior Member
Chappie said:
I don't have a copy of the code in front of me...

Does A big TV and A/V equipment count as IT stuff? THat's mainly what I'm concerned about. It's equipment I've bought over the course of years and could not afford to replace if it were all fried in one whack.

I do quite a bit of residential remodel and upgrade work these days. If I was you, I'd hire a guy like me to install a new properly grounded circuit in those places where you need one.

My big TV has a two prong plug on it. So putting in a three prong, properly grounded, receptacle outlet, would be a waste of time. Unless I wanted to plug that TV into a surge protector, which has a three prong plug and would need that grounded receptacle to work.

Unless there is something we don't know about the situation with buying the house, I agree with electricmanscott. Offer the owner a few grand less, and pay for your own updates as needed. You are being told the installation complies with the code. They are correct in my opinion. If you plug IT equipment or a big tv into any given receptacle, it is out of their control. With the house empty, the receptacle outlets are fine as they are.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
The NEC allows an non grounded receptacle to be replaced with a non grounded GFCI, recognizing that its safer than having someone cut off the ground pin on a male plug.
But this is for cord and plug connected equipment only.
 

76nemo

Senior Member
Location
Ogdensburg, NY
I agree with the original HO's electrician. Two-wire is protected by ground fault protection. Now if I just bought the place, of course I would want all three-wire. You can try to negotiate with them all day long. If I was the SELLER, the price tag wouldn't change. If he/she is willing to go lower, ask for AFCI protection and tamper resistant receptacles.
For a piece of equipment that's labeled "Must be connected to EG", sounds like the ground is bonded and not isolated from the frame, sounds like, "Made in Taiwan".
Don't lose any sleep over this subject, try to get a lower price, but don't lose any sleep.

So, we could have brought the country out of debt if we had grounded equipment/three prong from the get go:confused: How much A/V equipment do you see supplied with three-wire cords? Just what does that say for itself?
 
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