changing guts of old panel to new guts

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mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
I've done it from time to time. Matter of fact, Cutler Hammer makes retrofit kits to do just this. Consider also that the panel is actually two components. The panelboard (the guts) and the cabinet.
 

e57

Senior Member
brother said:
im curious have any of u ever changed the guts of old panels for new guts, due to the extra expense and time involved? Ive seen this at some stores and even hospitals (they got lots of old panels) and I see this as a clear violation of the UL LISTING, unless the ahj approves.
For some odd reason I was looking up the listings of both breakers and cabinets the other day in the whitebook - two seperate items....

While I too have done it - and I can see no difference in the construction of one can to the other in many cases....

However....

FIELD MODIFICATIONS​
The UL Mark applies to the product as it is originally manufactured
when shipped from the factory. Authorized use of the UL Mark is the
manufacturer?s declaration that the product was originally manufactured
in accordance with the applicable requirements. UL does not know what
the effect of a modification may have on the safety of the product or the
continued validity of the UL certification mark unless the field modifications
have been specifically investigated by UL. Unless UL investigates a
modified product, UL cannot indicate that the product continues to meet
UL?s safety requirements.
The only exception for a field modification authorized by UL is when
the product has specific replacement markings. For example, a switchboard
may have specific grounding kits added in the field. The switchboard
is marked with a list of specific kit numbers that have been investigated
for use in that particular switchboard. Only grounding kits that are
included on the product have been investigated for use in that product.​

Ref -page #45: http://www.ul.com/regulators/2006WhiteBook.pdf
 

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
Just did one the other day a fairly new Murray 200A panel was Trashed by water intrusion wicking through the se cable. Ruined the main and all of the breakers and buss detail. The panel was fine and neutral buss was fine. Less than 1 yr old and trashed. Just changed out the buss detail new main and all new breakers piece of cake. Two dozen screws and a dab of silicone and I was done brand new service. Safe now.
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
brother said:
im curious have any of u ever changed the guts of old panels for new guts, due to the extra expense and time involved? Ive seen this at some stores and even hospitals (they got lots of old panels) and I see this as a clear violation of the UL LISTING, unless the ahj approves.

I think technically UL is above the AHJ. After all when ever we argue a case with the ahj. We say " It is UL approoved"
That said I have done it. But every thing has to line up. You have to use the same one that matches the cover and the box
This is great when you have conduits coming in from all directions. What I don't like is when I find a panel cover on a panel wher it does not fit properly. You have to use common sense. If it doesn't look exactly right to you, it probably won't look right to the ahj either.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
There is no requirement that cabinets used for panelboards be listed.

As Marc pointed out, the 'panelboard' is the part with the buss bars, the cabint is not the panelboardcabinet.

Take a look at Artcile 100s defintion of panelboardArticle.

Then take a look at Article 312 for cabinat requiments.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
There is no requirement that cabinets used for panelboards be listed.

As Marc pointed out, the 'panelboard' is the part with the buss bars, the cabinet is not the panelboard.

Take a look at Artcile 100s defintion of panelboard.

Then take a look at Article 312 for cabinet requiments.
 
iwire said:
There is no requirement that cabinets used for panelboards be listed.

As Marc pointed out, the 'panelboard' is the part with the buss bars, the cabinet is not the panelboard.

Take a look at Artcile 100s defintion of panelboard.

Then take a look at Article 312 for cabinet requiments.


This may be true what the NEC says, however if the manufacturer or UL claims that 'any' modification needs to be 'specifically investigated' by UL to get their approval as e57 pointed out. It really makes me wonder what would happen if their was a 'legal' issue to arise. Like i said i have seen it done, and I think personally its ok if the ahj approves, however it looks like this 'technically' is not the case.

e57 said:
The UL Mark applies to the product as it is originally manufactured
when shipped from the factory. Authorized use of the UL Mark is the
manufacturer?s declaration that the product was originally manufactured
in accordance with the applicable requirements. UL does not know what
the effect of a modification may have on the safety of the product or the
continued validity of the UL certification mark unless the field modifications
have been specifically investigated by UL.
.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
brother said:
This may be true what the NEC says, however if the manufacturer or UL claims that 'any' modification needs to be 'specifically investigated' by UL to get their approval as e57 pointed out. It really makes me wonder what would happen if their was a 'legal' issue to arise. Like i said i have seen it done, and I think personally its ok if the ahj approves, however it looks like this 'technically' is not the case.

According to the NEC the final decision lays with the AHJ. A listing mark/label is only one tool that the AHJ can use when evaluating the suitability of an installation. The UL statement that was cited clearly states that a field modifications may not present any issue. UL will be glad to come out an perform a field investigation, but I see no requirement that they must do so.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
jim dungar said:
According to the NEC the final decision lays with the AHJ. A listing mark/label is only one tool that the AHJ can use when evaluating the suitability of an installation. The UL statement that was cited clearly states that a field modifications may not present any issue. UL will be glad to come out an perform a field investigation, but I see no requirement that they must do so.


How would one go about getting UL to do that ? and any idea what that would cost ?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
brother said:
This may be true what the NEC says, however if the manufacturer or UL claims that 'any' modification needs to be 'specifically investigated' by UL to get their approval as e57 pointed out.

You are not modifying the panelboard, the panelboard is not the cabinet.

If you work with commercial panels this would be evident as the panelboard is one part number, the cover / door is another part number, the cabinet is another part number and they ship separately. If all you order is a panel board all you will get is busbars without any enclosure.

In residential "Loadcenters" are used, neither UL or the NEC recognizes the term 'loadcenter' that is a marketing term that includes a panel board, trim and cabinet shipped together. The fact they are shipped preassembled does not change the fact it is a panelboard and a cabinet to the NEC.

It seems you are trying to find a problem with something that is not a problem. :confused:

Replacing panelboards is a common task and as has been pointed out CH stocks panelboard replacements. :)
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
How about this quote from the UL site. I've asked UL rep's about this and have gotten no real answer. According to this minor modifications are permitted.

Field Inspections
If your product or equipment has been recently installed and is missing the proper UL labels, UL's Field Inspection Service can provide an onsite inspection to allow the product to be field labeled. This service can help you avoid costly removal and replacement of your product, saving you both time and money.

To qualify for this service, the equipment or products should meet the following criteria:

Must have an active UL certification.
Must have been manufactured at a UL authorized manufacturing facility in accordance with the active UL Procedure.
Should not have been in use for more than one year.
In addition, minor modifications performed in the field are permissible on equipment or products provided that the modifications are fully in accordance with the UL Procedure. Such modifications shall be made by the manufacturer authorized in the UL Procedure that covers the equipment or product.


All Inspection, Measuring, and Test Equipment (IMTE) required as part of the UL Follow Up Services Procedure or used in the conduct of the inspection of the product must be provided to our Field Representative by the applicant, manufacturer or on site contact. The IMTE must be calibrated and included in a calibration system.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
The Eaton retrofit panelboards can be found here: (two links on that page)
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Marke...ion/Panelboards/LightingPanelboards/index.htm

I think I remember these being UL Classified to fit in certain dimension cans, but I am not sure.

I agree panelboards and cabinets do not have to be listed. I will not accept any because I am not qualified and the city does not have the facilities to evaluate the product to 110.3(A). I would guess this is beyond the capabilities of most AHJ's. The City of LA has their own testing lab, but that is the only one I know of. If you want to provide a third party evaluation (different from a listing) then we will probably be ok.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
sandsnow said:
According to this minor modifications are permitted.

If I receive a UL listed motor in a shipping box, then remove it from the shipping box and place it in a create did I modify the motor?
 
iwire said:
It seems you are trying to find a problem with something that is not a problem. :confused:

Replacing panelboards is a common task and as has been pointed out CH stocks panelboard replacements. :)

Im not trying to find a problem with something that is not a problem. Thats really an unfair statement. Im just trying to get an better understanding of UL listings and how most AHJ interpet things.
Like i said earlier i have seen it done, and I think personally its ok if the ahj approves. But someone pointed out that UL might be above the ahj, I personally dont know for sure.
 
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e57

Senior Member
I didn't say you couldn't do it - I have done - and will again in certain situations. (Like having existing conduit in an enclosure of the same size...) The fact that UL wants to put thier thumb print on everything makes little difference IMO.

To further this discussion.....

PANELBOARDS (QEUY)​
GENERAL​
This category covers lighting and power panelboards rated 600 V or less.
Panelboards are intended for mounting in cabinets or cutout boxes which
may be provided with the panel or provided separately. Only panelboards
marked to indicate that they are for use in a specific box and panelboards
labeled as ??Enclosed Panelboards?? have been investigated to determine that box wiring space is adequate.​
USE, INSTALLATION AND MARKINGS​
Enclosed panelboards identified with an enclosure type designation are
intended for use as indicated in Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary
Locations (AALZ).​
AALZ is where I got that first quote from......
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
As a sales/application engineer with Westinghouse and Eaton/Cutler-Hammer we had such a program to address changing the chassis and the dead front covers of exising panels. I had provided a few.
It's been a while but what I needed were the exact dimensions as I can recall.
Check out Section 4 page 20 of the following publication:

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/SearchResults/index.htm?ssUserText=CA01417001E&x=17&y=8

Click on:Tab 04 - Panelboards Aftermarket Solutions
TB01400002E.PDF Your Electrical Solutions Catalog, Panelboards Aftermarket Solutions Tab
 

jerm

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa, Ok
In the school system here we did a LOT of panelboard change outs, using existing cabinets.

They were typically 42-circuit fuse boxes in huge metal cabinets embedded in masonary walls with rigid pipes coming in top and bottom of the cabinet. We'd usually just label the wires/ckt #'s, rip all the guts out (incl. grounded conductors) and screw in a new 42-ckt SqD bolt-in panelboard, put the cover on, and make a drawing of the sheet metal that would need to be fabricated to cover the gap between the old cabinet and the new panelboard cover. Later that day, we'd take the cover back off, install the new sheet metal 'filler' plate, and screw back down the panelboard cover w/ door.

We probably did a few hundred of these (there are 110+ buildings in the school district, multiple panels per building, and most buildings were of the same vintage at that time) over the course of two (three?) summers and never failed an inspection for using this method. Not that "passing" means we must have done it right, just that everyone involved thought it was the right thing to do. I can't imagine changing out the cabinets, given the size of them, and all the rigid conduits going in the top and bottom (and sometimes sides!)
 
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