AFCI's

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cschmid

Senior Member
okay I have heard allot of compliants about AFCI's already and we are only few months in..My question is who is paying for the AFCI problems?? What do you think this is doing for our industries reputation?? how about your businesses reputation is it being affected by the AFCI?? and How??
 
L

Lxnxjxhx

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who is paying for the AFCI problems??

who is paying for the AFCI problems??

If this "game" is set up correctly, it is those people who are least likely to bring a class action lawsuit. Being sued brings unwelcome attention.

Experts could set up experiments to prove to some level of certainty that these things are tripping unnecessarily, but that would be quite a project.
 

cschmid

Senior Member
I guess what i am after is in other threads there is alot of whinning about the AFCI's. I want to kow who is responsible for the customers inconvience..and how they are percieving this inconvience..How does this reflect on our industry..because the 08 has not been adopted here yet..in an already down turned economy how does this affect your businesses..here unhappy customers mean lower cash flow..
 
480sparky said:
The '08 hasn't been adopted in any areas I've been working in, so I can't say.


Not sure about my area really, as I'm just breaking into working for myself, but if the '08 NEC hasn't been adopted in your area yet, does that mean you don't have to use the afci's? If I only have to go by the version of the code the state tests on, man, I'm free and easy. Louisiana only uses the 1993 NEC for the contractor's test!
 
cschmid said:
I guess what i am after is in other threads there is alot of whinning about the AFCI's. I want to kow who is responsible for the customers inconvience..and how they are percieving this inconvience..How does this reflect on our industry..because the 08 has not been adopted here yet..in an already down turned economy how does this affect your businesses..here unhappy customers mean lower cash flow..

As described in those other threads *whatever* the cause truly is the onus is on the EC to determine the cause. From the EC's standpoint, he has to and I mean he MUST be vigilant that NOTHING behind the wall can be the cause of an arc before the GWB goes up and to be super careful that all make up and devicing is done well and that all fixtures are inspected before install as well.

The extra time to verify all this is done is work that the initial bid will have to include with the GC and/or owner understanding that the afci requirement (as well as good practice) warrant the specific efforts. With that understood and the wiring verified (and that time charged for) then you are back to the usual practice of warranting your work as you usually do.

Warranty problems the EC will have to eat will be either in the panel or an outlet box all of which are easy enough to access.


How many extra inspection and testing hours will this add to the typical new home?
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
cschmid said:
okay I have heard allot of compliants about AFCI's already and we are only few months in..My question is who is paying for the AFCI problems??
Who pays you back when one of your guys hooked up a 3-way wrong or forgot a home run? Same deal. Properly installed AFCI's connected to properly installed wiring do not cause any problems.
 

ITO

Senior Member
Location
Texas
mdshunk said:
... Properly installed AFCI's connected to properly installed wiring do not cause any problems.

I am no so sure, and have eaten my fair share of AFCIs in labor and material that were properly installed the first time.

The fact is, we have industry insiders to thank for this headache and we are not really any safer... but anything done in the name of little children must be good right?
 
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stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
ITO said:
I am no so sure, and have eaten my fair share of AFCIs in labor and material that were properly installed the first time.

The fact is, we have industry insiders to thank for this headache and we are not really any safer... but anything done in the name of little children must be good right?

Just like mandatory # 12 minimum awg correct?
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
electricalperson said:
i never had any problems with afci's. if an afci is tripping maybe its doing its job?


What brand of AFCIs do you use. There was a recall of Square-D ( changed out a few of those), They didn't recall them but cutler Hammer ran some that didn't work very well ( changed out a few of those ) and being a cheap shate I normally use Seimens and I have had to change out at few of those also.

The only company that has made any sort of offer to pay for labor is Square-D. They were willing not only to replace the breaker but also pay a reasonable amount for a service call to replaced the one's recalled. Not all of the one's replaced were on the recall list. For the others the best you can hope for is to exchange it.
 

walkerj

Senior Member
Location
Baton Rouge
electricalperson said:
i never had any problems with afci's. if an afci is tripping maybe its doing its job?

Exactly!
99.9% of the time, if it trips there is a reason. Troubleshooting an arc fault circuit is much different than troubleshooting a normal circuit.(Ground and neutral tied together-no problem)

Most of the time, it's faulty wiring. ie, staple too tight, bare ground very close to hot screws on a device, or knicked insulation where wire is stripped at box entry(my favorite:roll:)

Maybe the breaker companies should buy us all meggers so we stop bothering them with our wiring problems.

OK, let me have it:grin:
 

aline

Senior Member
Location
Utah
The other day I had a customer ask me why that whenever she plugged her coffee maker into the outlet it sparked. I asked her if the switch was in the on posistion when she plugged it in. Turns out she was leaving the switch on and unplugging it when she was done using it and then plugging it in back in when she needed it again causing arcing at the outlet. I recommended that she turn the coffee pot off when unplugging it and plugging it in.

This post got me wondering if she had an AFCI breaker on this circuit would the AFCI breaker see this as series arc and trip the breaker?

If people are plugging in things with a heavy load such as a vacuum cleaner or portable space heater and the switch is left in the on posistion will this trip an AFCI breaker?

Another customer I replaced a switch because it would occasionally make a popping sound and he would see sparks.
If on an AFCI breaker would the breaker trip before you would see the sparks from the switch?
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
If you leave the switch on and plug it in you will have an arc at the plug.

If you plug it in then flip the switch on you will have an arc at the switch.
 

electricalperson

Senior Member
Location
massachusetts
growler said:
What brand of AFCIs do you use. There was a recall of Square-D ( changed out a few of those), They didn't recall them but cutler Hammer ran some that didn't work very well ( changed out a few of those ) and being a cheap shate I normally use Seimens and I have had to change out at few of those also.

The only company that has made any sort of offer to pay for labor is Square-D. They were willing not only to replace the breaker but also pay a reasonable amount for a service call to replaced the one's recalled. Not all of the one's replaced were on the recall list. For the others the best you can hope for is to exchange it.
i use square d, cutler hammer, GE, and seimens. whatever breaker fits the panel i buy. i use homeline and BR mostly. never had a problem with them. must be luck i suppose. maybe once i start installing 20 of them in a house ill have problems but installing them with the 02 - 05 code book no problems at all.
 

aline

Senior Member
Location
Utah
iwire said:
If you leave the switch on and plug it in you will have an arc at the plug.

If you plug it in then flip the switch on you will have an arc at the switch.
I realize this but the switch is designed for this. I believe the switch contacts are designed to close quickly to minimize arcing. I don't think the plug is. I could see where an elderly person is shaking and slowly plugging the appliance into the outlet causing more arcing than usual.

I'd just like to know if this would cause the AFCI to see this as a series arc. I just can't see how an AFCI could distinquish between an arc at the plug and an arc at a loose connection.
 

ITO

Senior Member
Location
Texas
stickboy1375 said:
Just like mandatory # 12 minimum awg correct?

The minimum size as #12 is not really as much as a headache as the AFI and that rule has never cost me money, but yeah it still strikes me as odd.
 

e57

Senior Member
mdshunk said:
Who pays you back when one of your guys hooked up a 3-way wrong or forgot a home run? Same deal. Properly installed AFCI's connected to properly installed wiring do not cause any problems.

You obviously have never had the calls about "when I turn on my flat screen all the power goes out...." Or the phone call to the manufacturer who basically tells you to install another brand or "wait for a new lot number with an improved design.... Can they buy a different TV?" Or had to get instructions on how to turn on a vaccum cleaner translated into Spainish.... Took nearly six months to get a new "improved design" for that one....

Both SqD and Murray had lists of "Known Equipment Conflicts" along with apologies for the inconvieniance and that they were 'working on it'....

I still think it is a design of infant technology and will be for some time, and that every study on them is skewed.... And code requirement a money grab.
 
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