AFCI testing AGAIN

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e57

Senior Member
OK - can someone tell me why there are ~$40 CB's out there that can apparently detect 3 different conditions - series/parallel arcing, and ground faults between 10-30ma - yet there is no DIAGNOSTIC TOOL out there to tell you which one or to what degree, or where or how to find it!?!?!?

Seriously - the breaker sensed it - right? (Even though you can put a breaker in of another manufacturer, or the same model and make different lot number and it may not trip at all - ever... As many operate on different parameters... :roll: ) But no tool that will tell you what made it trip.... Some have installed what I call "idiot lights" for AF vs GF tripping - but how decisive is an LED on a breaker you have little trust in - in the first place?

I know there is one member who will pop in and say - megger! But there are those of us who have meggers available and found no problems and still have problems.....

And there are those of us who know how to operate a phone - and have called only to find that "equipment conflicts" were the problem all along.... As there are a number of variable speed motor controls, ballasts, and electronic power supplies that I have had two manufactures admit will not work on their products. Call and ask Tech Support and ask for "Known Equipment Conflicts" and have the make and model number available for them to check the list that they refuse to publish :mad: and they will tell you if it is on there YET!

I know there data loggers out there that can pick up all types of current and wave form distortion for display - but the investment in that is pretty up there for most of us in small-mid sized firms... But even then I wonder if they would pick up the combination of AF/GF conditions? Apparently there is a specific wave form that the cheap breaker is looking for - right?

Then there are these so-called testers that apparently 'simulate' an arc fault with a few high-current pulses - but a number of us have noticed that they don't trip every breaker, or are they suited legally to do so as an "Approved" testing method - just the 'test button' on the breaker it self.... So what is that 'test button' doing anyway?????

So what are we to do? Twiddle our thumbs every time this shows up? Take wild guesses in 5 directions until we find what the the $40 breaker cant tell us reliably in the first place?
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
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Looks like you're buying a data logger? Or buying and learning how to use a DLRO? Or buying and learning how to use a TDR? Everything you need to troubleshoot this stuff already exists. Buy some and use it. You're whining that the magic bullet doesn't exist, and I'm sorta happy about that. Get out of the biz if it frustrates you. Seriously. Your obligation is to properly equip and educate yourself. Here's my money-back guarantee... fly me anywhere in this country and show me an AFCI that's tripping and I'll figure out what you did wrong.
 

e57

Senior Member
mdshunk said:
You're whining that the magic bullet doesn't exist, and I'm sorta happy about that.

No - I am whining about a product in its infancy being forced down our throats! And I am not the only one either.... While I am fortunate enough to be on the 05 NEC still and not required to do whole building in them.... I only rarely have problems with them - and 9 out 10 its the breaker itself!

FYI - there has never been a problem I could not find with these - but it has been a sever waste of my time to do so.... Nor do I need to fly you anywhere to find it.... :roll: In case you missed the fine print - I was looking for an opinion to expand past yours.... :cool:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Mark it's not like it's a maintained condition like a bolted short circuit. Whatever tripped the AFCI may be very intermittent in nature. It seems a data logger would be the only option.

At least some AFCIs now come with LEDs that indicate the reason for the trip. :smile:

It also seems that where there is a need a tool will be along soon.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
e57 said:
.....Take wild guesses in 5 directions until we find what the the $40 breaker cant tell us reliably in the first place?

What do you want the AFCI to 'tell' you? A written message saying "The fault is an over-tightened staple in the north dining room wall, 49?" below the bottom edge of the crown moulding, left side of the stud cavity between the east window and the sliding door."?
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
480sparky said:
What do you want the AFCI to 'tell' you? A written message saying "The fault is an over-tightened staple in the north dining room wall, 49?" below the bottom edge of the crown moulding, left side of the stud cavity between the east window and the sliding door."?

I'd give at least $45 for an afci that can do that!
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
iwire said:
Mark it's not like it's a maintained condition like a bolted short circuit. Whatever tripped the AFCI may be very intermittent in nature. It seems a data logger would be the only option..
No, not at all, and I'm somewhat surprised to see that sentence from you.

Intermittent is another word for a situation that does not rise to levels detected by the safety monitor on a consistent basis. Testing for levels that are presently below the threshold that the safety device looks for will ferret out the root cause. For instance, what was an arcing fault 12 hours ago may be a resistive connection at the moment.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Intermittent is another word for a situation that does not rise to levels detected by the safety monitor on a consistent basis.

No kidding. :)

Testing for levels that are presently below the threshold that the safety device looks for will ferret out the root cause.

That is a big assumption.

Testing for levels that are presently below the threshold that the safety device looks for may ferret out the root cause.

For instance, what was an arcing fault 12 hours ago may be a resistive connection at the moment.

It could be, or it could be nothing now.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
iwire said:
Testing for levels that are presently below the threshold that the safety device looks for may ferret out the root cause.
It will more times than it will not. By the time an electrician gets called in for an intermittantly tripping AFCI, the problem is quite real and will not be found to have totally "cleared". If you were troubleshooting an AFCI that tripped once, you might not find it. If you're troubleshooting a problem child AFCI, you will find your problem. The problem still exists, but just not to a degree that conflicts with the AFCI. Just find it, to that lesser degree, where ever it exists.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
mdshunk said:
If you're troubleshooting a problem child AFCI, you will find your problem.

Even with an ego as big as mine is I am not willing to agree that I could always find an intermittent problem, I bow to your super powers. :grin:
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
iwire said:
Even with an ego as big as mine is I am not willing to agree that I could always find an intermittent problem, I bow to your super powers. :grin:
I said that you will find the problem. I would find it too. So would anyone else with the appropriate equipment and training in its use. Your lack of confidence comes from never having installed or dealt with an AFCI, I would suppose.

I bet that years ago, mechanics were damning the advent of emissions controls and computer controls in cars. Some continued to work on the old cars only, and some got the proper equipment and training to work on the new computer controlled stuff. "That dog-gone check engine light comes on every once in a while". Draw a parallel to an intermittently tripping AFCI. You're not going to diagnose a check engine light with an old-school tach/dwell meter, and you're not going to troubleshoot an intermittently tripping AFCI with your Wiggy or T5.

It has nothing to do with super powers. It has to do with staying current and relevant with the changes in the industry.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
e57 said:
FYI - there has never been a problem I could not find with these - but it has been a sever waste of my time to do so....
I just noticed this comment....

You're basically complaining that it takes you too long to find the problem? That sounds like an issue on your end. You troubleshooting these for free or something?
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
mdshunk said:
"That dog-gone check engine light comes on every once in a while".


Check engine light. What are you driving, a Model-T. Check engine lights were replaced years ago.

Now the On Board Diagnostics computer tells you ( in a very sweet voice )to pull over at the nearest dealership, step out of the vehicle, drop you pants and bend over. It's time for your check up. :grin: :grin:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
mdshunk said:
It has nothing to do with super powers. It has to do with staying current and relevant with the changes in the industry.


OK Marc, your right it's just a matter of staying current. :roll:
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
iwire said:
OK Marc, your right it's just a matter of staying current. :roll:
I know you're agreeing with that tongue-in-cheek, but the statement is true just the same. There is no electrical problem that doesn't have a solution.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
mdshunk said:
There is no electrical problem that doesn't have a solution.

That reminds me of an arguement that I had with a customer that is also a doctor. He says that we have the best medical care in the world. I say we have the best medical care for those that can afford it. This doctor is around 60 years of age and he pays $36K a year for insurance for himself and another $18K for his wife ( no problem for a doctor ). I tell him I think it's great but many people in America just don't have that kind of money.

If we can fake putting a man on the moon I'm sure that we can solve most electrical problems but at what cost.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
iwire said:
It is this I do not...
I believe that it is your lack of field experience with AFCI's that causes you to feel this way. By the time the intermittently tripping AFCI is enough of an issue to cause an electrician to be summoned, the problem will be reasonably easy to root out with the proper equipment. Time consuming, but easy just the same.

We can do this all day...
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
growler said:
If we can fake putting a man on the moon I'm sure that we can solve most electrical problems but at what cost.
If you're not willing to bear the cost, only perform electrical work that will not involve AFCI's. Simple as that.
 
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