Fire Alarm Norms

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George Stolz

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Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
On a fire pump controller, there are four signal outputs:
  1. Power Available
  2. Phase Reversal
  3. Fire Pump Running
  4. Key not in Auto
The tech says what "Fire Pump Running" is generally triggers the fire alarm, so that the pump is not left running accidentally, wearing out/burning up the pump when there is no fire.

The Fire Inspector thought this was odd, called her boss, and he said he wanted it to be only a supervisory signal (notifying the monitoring company only, no fire trucks).

Which way is it normally done in your neighborhood, just out of curiousity?

It wasn't a big deal to change at all, my interest was piqued by the exchange.

(I had other issues, hopefully today the system passes. :) )
 

kkwong

Senior Member
Here in Sac our fire pumps are set to send the building in to alarm and transmit it as an "alarm-pump running" so we can shut it down and so the PO/BR does not have to pay a couple hundred thousand for a new pump.
 

MEP_PM

Member
I don’t think I’ve seen a Fire Pump run alarm set off a General Fire Alarm. I think it has normally been a supervisory alarm. That way the building operator can check it out prior to the Fire Trucks showing up.
 

kkwong

Senior Member
SmithBuilt said:
If the pump is running wouldn't that mean there is water flow and the flow switch would set off the alarm anyway.


You're correct, Smith, the problem is that some jurisdictions don't want to be woken up in the middle of the night for a "fire pump running" alarm. Edit to add: unless they get another alarm...smoke, heat, water flow etc...

MEP, what if there is no PO available?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Power Available
Phase Reversal
Fire Pump Running
Key not in Auto



All supervisory.

Flow switches generate alarms.

You don't evacuate a building just because someone fires up the fire pump.
 

MEP_PM

Member
kkwong said:
MEP, what if there is no PO available?

Most of the projects I have been involved with either have around the clock maintenance staff or on call maintenance staff that would respond.
I?m not sure what the 3rd party FA monitoring service would do for a supervisory alarm. I would think they would call their on file building contact #1 then #2, ? if they don?t contact anyone to respond they call the fire dept. I agree the fire pump running an extended amount of time without flow is not a good situation.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
georgestolz said:
The Fire Inspector thought this was odd, called her boss, and he said he wanted it to be only a supervisory signal (notifying the monitoring company only, no fire trucks). :) )


Is her boss the Fire Marshal ? If it's the Fire Marshals office then they normally get what they want.

If you want to check it out then call the State Fire Marshals Office. I think that is the only person that can go over the local official's head.
 

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
MEP_PM said:
I?m not sure what the 3rd party FA monitoring service would do for a supervisory alarm. I would think they would call their on file building contact #1 then #2, ? if they don?t contact anyone to respond they call the fire dept.

Thats pretty much it here where I am.

Most buildings with alarms and sprinkler systems have signed service contracts someone will respond. And if the building owner is too cheap and does not have a service contract set up they may end up with a toasted pump.

I agree the fire pump running an extended amount of time without flow is not a good situation.

Agreed, but it is not such a bad situation that fire trucks should be racing across town for an alarm that is really a non-emergency. :smile:
 

kkwong

Senior Member
MEP_PM said:
Most of the projects I have been involved with either have around the clock maintenance staff or on call maintenance staff that would respond.

While that is mostly true here, there are always exceptions to that rule :)


I’m not sure what the 3rd party FA monitoring service would do for a supervisory alarm. I would think they would call their on file building contact #1 then #2, … if they don’t contact anyone to respond they call the fire dept. I agree the fire pump running an extended amount of time without flow is not a good situation.

On a supervisory they would call the PO/BR.

Edit to add: Growler-the State Fire Marshal may not have an interpretation on that. One of my neighbor city's has all their pumps programmed as supervisory, not alarm.
 
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kkwong

Senior Member
SmithBuilt said:
What initiates the fire pump to come on?

one of two things (or one in the same): either a/several sprinklers fuse causing a water flow and a decrease in pressure that the jockey pump cannot keep up

OR

a drop in pressure in which the jockey cannot keep up with.
 

jerm

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa, Ok
is there a waterflow switch too? never worked with/installed/seen any of these pumps. We just have the sprinkler guys bolt on a waterflow and that gets a line to the system for alarm. also, of course, a supervisory on the valve so if someone shuts off the sprinklers it sends a trouble.
 

George Stolz

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Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Thanks all, for the replies. :cool:
iwire said:
...it is not such a bad situation that fire trucks should be racing across town for an alarm that is really a non-emergency. :smile:

That kind of captured my feeling about the event, but the fire alarm tech (with 12 more years of experience in it than I have) was aghast at the idea.

For clarification, there are flow switches that set off alarms, and the horn/strobe on the front of the building outside the riser room is directly connected to the FACP and runs with waterflow only (dry system included).

There are also flows on every floor, that send a unique message to the monitoring company that they may know which floor has triggered the alarm. Among other fun whistles and bells. :)

Question 2:

Are heat detectors and smokes required in elevator shafts? Top and bottom?
(By what?)
 

kkwong

Senior Member
georgestolz said:
Question 2:

Are heat detectors and smokes required in elevator shafts? Top and bottom?
(By what?)

NFPA 72...don't remember where and at the top...never at the bottom (that I know of).

Edit to add: George, didn't you have that NFPA 72 exerpt on smokie placement?
 
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George Stolz

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Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
kkwong said:
NFPA 72...don't remember where and at the top...never at the bottom (that I know of).

Edit to add: George, didn't you have that NFPA 72 exerpt on smokie placement?
Yeah, on houses. :D

I figured I'd shoot the question out there before I started looking at NFPA 72 online, I'd never get around to it. ;)
 

kkwong

Senior Member
yeah...sometimes 72 online is a pain that is why I like my paper version :)

I can't quote the exact section, but I think its somewhere in Ch 10 and I'm pretty darn sure its only at the top of the elevator shaft.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
OT, but I wish we had some fire alarm "norms" around here. Every city and town is different, every fire marshall has their own preferences, and you have to do what they say no matter what.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
kkwong said:
one of two things (or one in the same): either a/several sprinklers fuse causing a water flow and a decrease in pressure that the jockey pump cannot keep up

OR

a drop in pressure in which the jockey cannot keep up with.

OR

A moron is playing with the buttons on the controller. :D
 
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