Camera trips reactor.

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whillis

Member
Location
Vancouver, BC
It baffles me how a pump control system in a nuclear reactor can be so sensitive it picks up the electric field from a camera. One would think that in a location like that special attention would be given to choosing controls that are robust and reliable. I wonder if the engineers used proven technology or some custom built control that worked great in the lab?
 

coulter

Senior Member
Or it's pure pure smoke and bull - right up there with cell phones causing airplane navigation to malfunction. Makes one wonder if they were able to get the control to fail in a repeatable, verifiable test. I'll bet a cup of yuppie coffee they didn't

But this is the news - I doubt they ever expected anyone to actually read it with the intent to understand.

carl
 

electricalperson

Senior Member
Location
massachusetts
i dont believe how a digital camera could cause a nuclear plant to shut down. i would of figured they would of properly shielded any devices that might not work right with interference
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
This may explain it all



friday-the-13th.jpg

 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
A pilot friend of mine who flies corporate jets, says the cell phones interferes with the headsets, just annoying. They make the buzzing sound like when your at a computer with the speakers on. The Nuke thing sounds like an urban legend. Somebody probally goofed and that was a good scapegoat explanation.
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
I was in the US Navy Nuclear Power Program for nine years, and I worked in the Nuclear Power Generating Industry for sixteen years. I am prepared to believe this story on face value. I have no independent knowledge of the incident, though I could look it up if I had a mind to do so. But I will say that it could have happened, in just the fashion described in the news article.

First of all, the camera did not shutdown the reactor, the plant operators did. What the camera did was interfere with a control panel. What I infer (from what little the news article has to say) is that a signal emanating from the camera caused the pump controller to (incorrectly) sense that the water level was too high. The controller would then slow down the pump?s water output. This, in turn, would result in a low water level, and it might happen very quickly. Look at this from the point of view of the operator. All they saw was a sudden, and unexplained, loss of water level. Their training would have required them to immediately shut down the reactor, as a precautionary measure (i.e., in an effort to prevent the situation from getting worse). Putting the plant in a safe condition, until such time as the cause of the situation can be determined and corrected, would have been their highest priority.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
You would think with something that critical, there would be redundant level systems checking each other. Surely if there was, it would be hard to believe that both would be affected. ( I know don't call you Shirley)
 

iaov

Senior Member
Location
Rhinelander WI
I'm having a hard time buying this one too. Wether nuke or not we're talking boiler control instumentation. The transmitters for level , temp, pressure etc. sensors are very robust and shielded against RFI. In fact most of them emit a certain amount of noise.
 

khixxx

Senior Member
Location
BF PA
Keep in mind most of the nukes have 60s equipment. It takes an act of congress to get things approved then changed.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
charlie b said:
I was in the US Navy Nuclear Power Program for nine years, and I worked in the Nuclear Power Generating Industry for sixteen years. I am prepared to believe this story on face value. I have no independent knowledge of the incident, though I could look it up if I had a mind to do so. But I will say that it could have happened, in just the fashion described in the news article.

First of all, the camera did not shutdown the reactor, the plant operators did. What the camera did was interfere with a control panel. What I infer (from what little the news article has to say) is that a signal emanating from the camera caused the pump controller to (incorrectly) sense that the water level was too high. The controller would then slow down the pump?s water output. This, in turn, would result in a low water level, and it might happen very quickly. Look at this from the point of view of the operator. All they saw was a sudden, and unexplained, loss of water level. Their training would have required them to immediately shut down the reactor, as a precautionary measure (i.e., in an effort to prevent the situation from getting worse). Putting the plant in a safe condition, until such time as the cause of the situation can be determined and corrected, would have been their highest priority.

Very well put, from a fellow nuke I think you are closer to the truth than that news article. I have a crew going to Indian point next week (For that shutdown mentioned in the article), I will seee if they can get me some facts.
 

76nemo

Senior Member
Location
Ogdensburg, NY
iaov said:
I'm having a hard time buying this one too. Wether nuke or not we're talking boiler control instumentation. The transmitters for level , temp, pressure etc. sensors are very robust and shielded against RFI. In fact most of them emit a certain amount of noise.

Don't fret it too much, two-way radio's can wreck havoc as well with controls. Don't ask me to explain it, 'cause I am not that intelligent. It can and will happen. I've heard of it first hand.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
76nemo said:
Don't fret it too much, two-way radio's can wreck havoc as well with controls. Don't ask me to explain it, 'cause I am not that intelligent. It can and will happen. I've heard of it first hand.

Sure it happens but devices should go through testing for Rf interfreence for 10 CFR Appendix B safety related equipment in nuke plants. I am doing some of this testing on June 22-24 for LVCB trip units, Rf testing is one of many tests we will be conducting with ANSI.
 

coulter

Senior Member
76nemo said:
... two-way radio's can wreck havoc as well with controls. ...
True, I've been part of repeatable, verifable tests. However, all of the controls had high gain amplifiers, the radios are multi-watt RF output - not microwatt oscillators in a camera microprocessor.

I worked refueling overhauls, instrumentation, for surface ships and subs, 1973 - 1980. You couldn't hurt that equipment with a baseball bat. The EMP from a nuke wasn't susposed to take it out. Of course, one hopes the industry has progressed beyond mag amps.

For me, it's not a case of belief, it a case of "Okay, let me see the reports and test data". The report just sounds phony. "Well, we can't find anything else, we will blame it on that - mean while keep looking, it will likely be back. Either that or fire Harry, this is the second time we have dropped the rods on his shift."

It likely did happen just a charlie says. Now if the techs can't find anything wrong with the instrumentation, they will be under pressure to find a cause - now

There really isn't any bad here. If it was the camera, good for them. If not , the problem will be back, maybe they will find it next time or maybe Harry gets reassigned. And the story in the paper will be about the same - it isn't written for us.

carl
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
76nemo said:
Don't fret it too much, two-way radio's can wreck havoc as well with controls. Don't ask me to explain it, 'cause I am not that intelligent. It can and will happen. I've heard of it first hand.

2 way radios are designed to transmit.

I have never heard of a camera that transmitted any sort of RF without some sort of Bluetooth type of adapter.

I have had first hand experience with the media. They seldom get the facts correct.

If it was *that* easy to take out a nuke it leads us to assume they are very prone to damage with even a minimal amount of EMP.

And....why has this never happened before? People have been taking digital pictures inside nukes for many years now. Why *now* does one become affected?

Me....I'm not about to believe the story until I have been made aware of further details. How long before digital cameras are on the hit list of the Patriot Act and we will need a permit and / or license to carry one?
 
NRC employee: incompetent, bureaucratic, affirmative action, nepotism.

If it happened the way they say it did, it shouldn?t be hard to duplicate while the plant is SCRAMed. "The direct cause was radio frequency interference from the camera," NRC spokesman Neil Sheehan said. "All that had to happen was for the camera to be on."

The NRC was confident the radio frequency interference close to the control panel can't be caused from far away, he said.


The statements seem to contradict each other. If they proved to themselves that "All that had to happen was for the camera to be on." Why are they only ?confident that it can?t be caused from far way?
 
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