SKM Dapper/Captor/A-Fault/ArcFlash etc software

Status
Not open for further replies.

bbaumer

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
This is for the engineers.

I have not done a lot of fault and coordination work. I typically work on "small" projects and can selectively coordinate devices with minimal effort by looking at published curves and data. I also use AIC ratings I know for sure are more than adequate by erring on the safe side and using much higher rated equipment than is usually necessary. This is easy to do when I'm typically only working on 480V, 1200A max. service sizes with maybe a dozen panels or so with relatively small motor loads and a maybe a standby generator once in awhile.

I have been turning down work dedicated soley to analyzing networks, and most recently arc flash study work due to A) lack of experience and B) lack of software. These projects don't come along every day, or even close to every day, but am thinking I might want to add it to my offering.

One step in that direction other than refresher courses and continuing ed is to purchase some of the SKM software products.

My question to you-all is, who among you uses the SKM software and what are your thoughts on it? It is pretty expensive for a one man shop like mine with no guarantee I would get enough work for it to earn its' keep. What specific application(s) are most worth the $. Are there any alternatives?

Any and all suggestions or opinions are welcome.

bbaumer
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
SKm is becoming the standard, very good support. However, some companies require other specific software to be used. GM required ETAP for example, smart move for a company to use all the same software.

You will get more work than you can handle, I suggest investing in a school for the software you choose, you will save the time and money invested the first big job you get. You will want to find, train, and subcontract a data collection guy or two, data collection is where the money is made or lost. It has to be done fast and right the first time.
 
bbaumer said:
This is for the engineers.

I have not done a lot of fault and coordination work. I typically work on "small" projects and can selectively coordinate devices with minimal effort by looking at published curves and data. I also use AIC ratings I know for sure are more than adequate by erring on the safe side and using much higher rated equipment than is usually necessary. This is easy to do when I'm typically only working on 480V, 1200A max. service sizes with maybe a dozen panels or so with relatively small motor loads and a maybe a standby generator once in awhile.

I have been turning down work dedicated soley to analyzing networks, and most recently arc flash study work due to A) lack of experience and B) lack of software. These projects don't come along every day, or even close to every day, but am thinking I might want to add it to my offering.

One step in that direction other than refresher courses and continuing ed is to purchase some of the SKM software products.

My question to you-all is, who among you uses the SKM software and what are your thoughts on it? It is pretty expensive for a one man shop like mine with no guarantee I would get enough work for it to earn its' keep. What specific application(s) are most worth the $. Are there any alternatives?

Any and all suggestions or opinions are welcome.

bbaumer

It is a very specialized field. Simple systems for small installations may not requiure a great degree of the expertise, but larger systems can become very complex and complicated.

Each software will do a decent job, but you really need to know what to expect - eg. if the data is reasonable or not - because each has flukes and give you bad data.

Start small and then give yourself room to grow. You don't have to buy all modules of the software. As mentioned before data collection can eat your lunch. Requires marketing skills because many organizations are not even aware that they supposed to have the study done and the results implemented. OSHA 1910 Subpart S.
 

jbt260

Member
Location
Ohio
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I work for a large engineering firm. We have EasyPower and SKM Powertools. We use Easypower for all jobs unless SKM is required by client. We use Easypower for all arc flash studies. I have never used SKM for arc flash, only for short circuit.
 

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
Where do we start? Alright we'll start with OP.

I have used SKM software for load flow, short circuit, relay coordination, and arc flash. My thoughts on it? Unless directed by a client, we will use ETAP. Why you ask? Because overall, it is much more comprehensive and covers analysis in a manner much more suited to power generation. I also feel they have invested much more in making improvements, where SKM has somewhat rested on their past reputation. I don't know what type of work you are going to do, or already do. If it is NOT industrial or power generation, then SKM will probably work just fine. EasyPower is not in the same league as SKM or ETAP.

Now, price..... The cost of the program is relative to what modules you are going to need. Yes, the full package is going to be quite expensive $30k?, but you don't need something straight out of the shoot with so much capability. Additional modules/capabilities can always be added later. For an engineer to get started you should be able to get the basic (LF, SC, TCC, and Arc) for around $10k.

What are you going to do with it? Take no offense, but it sounds like you are not experienced in power system analysis. This will be a major hurdle to overcome in marketing yourself. Companies are reluctant to spend the money to do the analysis in the first place, and if they do, they want to see experience on the resume. Again, I am not trying to be biased toward ETAP, but something to consider, is that they offer engineering support to licensed users. So for example, you get the lead on an arc flash analysis, they can be contracted to actually perform the analysis for you as a subcontractor. This could help you learn and get up to speed. Believe me the folks over there are pretty sharp. They do not offer these services to the general public because they don't want to compete with consultants.

Performing an arc flash analysis, in most cases, is not a one off opportunity. Many clients we work with want to also buy the software and have us train them. Doing a study one time, and handing a report and a pile of stickers to them is not really meeting the intent of NFPA-70E, but I digress.

Will you get enough work? Depends on what you charge, and what the client is going to get for their money. The work is out there. Are you going to develop data sheets, gather site data, print stickers, offer relay modifications to help mitigate the energy released, perform relay coordination develop CAD one-lines? Etc etc etc....These services all cost money, and so now you enter the realm of competitive consulting. I can tell you most guys that don't really understand what their doing charge way too little and don't even come close to delivering to the client what they really need to meet NFPA-70E. That takes experience. You can also subcontract to Eaton-CH, or SqD to do it for you as well. But you better have a very tightly written scope, otherwise their pricing will be all over the map.

Well, that's all for now, I have to finish my proposals to do arc flash coordination studies for three different utilities to meet the new federal NERC and NESC requirements.:)
 

mayanees

Senior Member
Location
Westminster, MD
Occupation
Electrical Engineer and Master Electrician
... go for it!!

... go for it!!

bbaumer,

I bought my first SKM package in 1992 and slowly developed side jobs, to the point where it's now my career expertise on a full-time basis, with side-jobs as they come in.

I started with small pump stations and government buildings where a Power Study was required, and that led to anything that the local electrical contractors were bidding.

I am probably SKM's biggest advocate, having leaned on them every step of the way. I think their tech support is excellent.

The one area where I thought I needed a better technical awareness was protective relays, so I took course work at Drexel. I didn't go all the way through for the Masters program, but got all of the couse work I thought I needed in order to feel competent. And at the time Scott Paper paid my way, so it was only the burden of time.
The fundamental area of competence for any of the studies is NEC.

The biggest difference between the large systems and the small ones is the numerical relays - for which SKM isn't necessary - but it's a big part of the study. Those include the ANSI Device numbers, 27, 46, 47, 59, 81... etc. The SKM package deals with the 50/51, instantaneous and time-overcurrent.

SKM was good enough to let me time-pay, back in 1992, where I put 1/3 down, and the rest over 6 months.

I suggest that you buy one of their Combo-Packs, which includes enough to be job-ready in many cases. You can start with a low number of busses, and upgrade at any time for a fee that pretty much covers the incremental cost between the initial purchase price.

And as long as your name gets out - that you're doing the studies, and for a reasonable fee, you're honestly set for life, IMHO. My best contacts are from Electric Supply houses, where they need small studies. A typical job might be a 150kVA transformer and associated distribution equipment. Time to completion is on the order of 12-16 hours, with a fee of ... you set it!
I always figured I'd make my money on my next study, so I took jobs like that at $1500. But that's turned into $3,000-4,500.

I say go for it - since you're not located close to me where you could interrupt my side-hustle work!!

Good Luck

John M
 
Last edited:

bbaumer

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
Excellent responses and advice. Thank you all for taking the time to respond with such detail. I take no offense at all to your comments, kingpb, I find them very helpful and applicable. Thanks for the advice.

I am definitely going to research this further and find out my weak spots.

Thanks again and more comments are still welcome.

bbaumer
 

bbaumer

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
jbt260 said:
I work for a large engineering firm. We have EasyPower and SKM Powertools. We use Easypower for all jobs unless SKM is required by client. We use Easypower for all arc flash studies. I have never used SKM for arc flash, only for short circuit.

Just spent some time looking at the Easypower site and the demo videos. Looks very easy to use and pretty comprehensive. I called them up and they are sending me pricing and more information.

Thanks for letting me know about this software.

b
 

jbt260

Member
Location
Ohio
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Ask your local Siemens rep for a CD called "Siemens Design Assistant". On that CD, there is a program called "EasyTCC". It uses the Easypower platform. This would give you a taste of how Easypower works. This CD is a must for any EE. Very useful.
 

bbaumer

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
steve66 said:
I think you will find the Easypower is a bit pricy compared to SKM.

I'm finding all of them a bit pricey. I know it took at lot of time to develop the software originally and a lot of time to keep it current so I didn't expect it to be cheap. No matter what direction I go, it's a chunk of change for a little guy.

I got the Easypower demo downloaded and a password from them to start it. It is pretty easy to use, but being as how it's a demo you can't save your project or print anything. Just for the smallest shortcircuit / coordination package without arc-fault it runs $7,500.

Looks to me like the top 3 are SKM, ETAP and Easypower. Other than that I can only find cheap and freebie very basic excel-sheet type tools that are not at all comparable to those 3.

Any other choices out there?
 
bbaumer said:
I'm finding all of them a bit pricey. I know it took at lot of time to develop the software originally and a lot of time to keep it current so I didn't expect it to be cheap. No matter what direction I go, it's a chunk of change for a little guy.

I got the Easypower demo downloaded and a password from them to start it. It is pretty easy to use, but being as how it's a demo you can't save your project or print anything. Just for the smallest shortcircuit / coordination package without arc-fault it runs $7,500.

Looks to me like the top 3 are SKM, ETAP and Easypower. Other than that I can only find cheap and freebie very basic excel-sheet type tools that are not at all comparable to those 3.

Any other choices out there?

Then there is ESDA.
 

mayanees

Senior Member
Location
Westminster, MD
Occupation
Electrical Engineer and Master Electrician
... last call for SKM

... last call for SKM

weressl said:
Then there is ESDA.
I think weressl means EDSA.... I think...

I run both SKM and Easy Power, and favor SKM. I'm sure that's tainted by my level of familiarity with SKM, because there are folks in our office who prefer Easy Power... and they're weak with SKM.

Our engineering firm designs interconnected UPS systems, and neither Easy Power nor SKM can model that interconnection for stability. ETAP, (Electrical Transient Analyzer Program) is apparently doing just that, and we're about to purchase that software to model the interconnection of rotary and static UPS systems. We are unique in the critical power market with design of an Interconnected Parallel Bus (IP Bus) that's currently in operation at a number of large Data Centers. The system allows load sharing of all interconnected rotaries, and the individual IP choke provides Isolation from the bus and a degree of fault tolerance.
We've analyzed the systems from a stability standpoint with MatLab, but have yet to do full system modeling with a comprehensive Power Systems Analysis package.

To address a statement made in an earlier post that SKM wasn't an industrial level package - that's not true. It's perfect for industrial systems, having done numerous systems... with interface to Utilities - and developed numerous reports that are accepted by the likes of Con-Ed, Niagara Mohawk/National Grid, DelMarVa/Conectiv, Dominion Va Power.....
It's also perfect for these large Data Centers that I'm doing now, with dual 30MW, 35kV services.

The other thing that I'll emphasize about SKM is MY IMPRESSION of their tech support.. FOR ME, they've been excellent. Always responsive with creation of protective device library files, and even responses to 'engineering' type questions, with qualification that 'We can't provide engineering .. but what we suggest....", which gives me the comfort to ask anything. And the other thing that was nice about SKM is that they're West Coast and I'm East. I would come home from my day job and work on Power Studies. If I had a technical problem at 7:30 at night, they were still there to provide assistance.

And to present a balanced opinion of them, I'll state my perceived weak point with SKM.... the software can hang up. In days of old, when it was DOS based, it crashed every 20 minutes, so I saved every 10. And even today, their Crystal Reports function gets hung up on my machine, so I work around it.

If it was me, I'd start with one of their 50 node combo packs at ~$4500. You can upgrade node count when you need to for the incremental cost between the packages.

Funny, I think that was the price in 1992 when I bought my first package.

Oh, one more thing..... I am in no way associated or affiliated with SKM!!

And one more last thing..... With either package you buy, you should plan on going to their training class. There's so much running the software that it's pretty much essential, unless you've got an experienced hand that can assist.

Good Luck

John M
 
Last edited:
mayanees said:
I think weressl means EDSA.... I think...

I run both SKM and Easy Power, and favor SKM. I'm sure that's tainted by my level of familiarity with SKM, because there are folks in our office who prefer Easy Power... and they're weak with SKM.

Our engineering firm designs interconnected UPS systems, and neither Easy Power nor SKM can model that interconnection for stability. ETAP, (Electrical Transient Analyzer Program) is apparently doing just that, and we're about to purchase that software to model the interconnection of rotary and static UPS systems. We are unique in the critical power market with design of an Interconnected Parallel Bus (IP Bus) that's currently in operation at a number of large Data Centers. The system allows load sharing of all interconnected rotaries, and the individual IP choke provides Isolation from the bus and a degree of fault tolerance.
We've analyzed the systems from a stability standpoint with MatLab, but have yet to do full system modeling with a comprehensive Power Systems Analysis package.

To address a statement made in an earlier post that SKM wasn't an industrial level package - that's not true. It's perfect for industrial systems, having done numerous systems... with interface to Utilities - and developed numerous reports that are accepted by the likes of Con-Ed, Niagara Mohawk/National Grid, DelMarVa/Conectiv, Dominion Va Power.....
It's also perfect for these large Data Centers that I'm doing now, with dual 30MW, 35kV services.

The other thing that I'll empohasize about SKM is MY IMPRESSION of their tech support.. FOR ME, they've been excellent. Always responsive with creation of protective device library files, and even responses to 'engineering' type questions, with qualification that 'We can't provide engineering .. but what we suggest....", which gives me the comfort to ask anything. And the other thing that was nice about SKM is that they're West Coast and I'm East. I would come home from my day job and work on Power Studies. If I had a technical problem at 7:30 at night, they were still there to provide assistance.

And to present a balanced opinion of them, I'll state my perceived weak point with SKM.... the software can hang up. In days of old, when it was DOS based, it crashed every 20 minutes, so I saved every 10. And even today, their Crystal Reports function gets hung up on my machine, so I work around it.

If it was me, I'd start with one of their 50 node combo packs at ~$4500. You can upgrade node count when you need to for the incremental cost between the packages.

Funny, I think that was the price in 1992 when I bought my first package.

Oh, one more thing..... I am in no way associated or affiliated with SKM!!

And one more last thing..... With either package you buy, you should plan on going to their training class. There's so much running the software that it's pretty much essential, unless you've got an experienced hand that can assist.

Good Luck

John M

John,

Thanks for your correction, yes, it is EDSA.

I concur all what you stated above.

I would add that since SKM is probably the most used software for the purpose their device library is probably the most extensive. You could - back in the days - also build your own device curve then upload it to them so all users can benefit from their use.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top