Panel Board Clearance

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VIC1958

Senior Member
I have looked through the 2005 NEC and can not find a definitive answear as to how close a sink, sump pit etc. can be to a panel board, as long as all the other requirements are met. I was always under the impression of 3 ft to sides and in front.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
I have looked through the 2005 NEC and can not find a definitive answear as to how close a sink, sump pit etc. can be to a panel board, as long as all the other requirements are met. I was always under the impression of 3 ft to sides and in front.

If you are asking about a home. 0" clearance.

110.26(A) does not apply.

You can also use this space as storage. :jawdrop:

Been saving this one for a court setting but what the hey!
 
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charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
OK, Mike, I'll bite. What is your reasoning? Are you suggesting that the "likely to require" part won't come into play? Or are you saying that the NEC as an entity does not apply to homeowners? Or is there some other basis?
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
OK, Mike, I'll bite. What is your reasoning? Are you suggesting that the "likely to require" part won't come into play? Or are you saying that the NEC as an entity does not apply to homeowners? Or is there some other basis?

Charlie thank you for playing. (and I think you "likely" have it)

I'm the EC and I put a sump pit directly under the panel in a single family home. No disconnect outside just a simple install.

You are the EI and you fail me for 110.26.

I challenge you to explain why I have violated the code.

Please explain why 110.26 applies.

Now in Ohio I have to give you the code section for a violation. Not sure if I have to debate you on the job site but should I not have to be able to explain myself somewhere?
 

copper chopper

Senior Member
Location
wisconsin
hers what i found

hers what i found

408.37 says to comply with 312.2 that says this---312.2 Damp and Wet Locations.
In damp or wet locations,
surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article
shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture
or water from entering and accumulating within the cabinet
or cutout box, and shall be mounted so there is at least

6-mm (14-in.) airspace between the enclosure and the wall
or other supporting surface. Enclosures installed in wet locations
shall be weatherproof. For enclosures in wet locations,
raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated
live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations.
Exception: Nonmetallic enclosures shall be permitted to
be installed without the airspace on a concrete, masonry,
tile, or similar surface.
Informational Note: For protection against corrosion, see 300.6

now after that there is no definition for a damp or wet location in the code book
so I would ask the AHJ what there thoughts are on this. ( unless this is being done without a permit and you where just wondering):lol:
:lol::lol:


 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
How does OSHA make an adopted NEC mute? Though I will say that if a sump is not above the floor, it is not in the required working space.

OSHA prohibits 'live' work in a residential application!

There is never a time that you 'have to' work on anything live in a residential application.
 

jim dungar

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Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
There is never a time that you 'have to' work on anything live in a residential application.

Oh yes there is.
You must assume the item is live until you have verified it is not. In your example, using a voltmeter to determine if the utility has disconnected power to the panel, would require 'clear working space'.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Oh yes there is.
You must assume the item is live until you have verified it is not. In your example, using a voltmeter to determine if the utility has disconnected power to the panel, would require 'clear working space'.

Yes and no. How you going to do a live-dead-live test?

How you 'treat' it does not make it live.

Only place that you ever need to verify voltage is at the meter. Now I know you are going to ask how do we check amperage but why do we need to check amperage? Not for the building wiring. For equipment? Then remove the equipment and test it. Would I do this? No but that does not change the rules.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
OSHA prohibits 'live' work in a residential application!

There is never a time that you 'have to' work on anything live in a residential application.
Not true as OSHA always permits troubleshooting live circuits. Even if OSHA did prohibit all energized troubleshooting and work, that would not make it any less likely that such work would be done. The rule applies if such work is likely. I submit that live work is likely at every electrical installation no matter if there are rules in other documents that prohibit live work.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Not true as OSHA always permits troubleshooting live circuits. Even if OSHA did prohibit all energized troubleshooting and work, that would not make it any less likely that such work would be done. The rule applies if such work is likely. I submit that live work is likely at every electrical installation no matter if there are rules in other documents that prohibit live work.

If true I am wrong.

By using a portable generator.

Great comeback!
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
1910.333(a)(1)"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.
Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.
Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.

Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Mike OSHA does not cover one man shops or home owners who do their own work.

OSHA only covers shops that employee two or more workers.

The NEC covers all installations.

Understand that. Does that mean it is OK to be unsafe?

1910.333(a)(1)"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.
Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.
Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.

Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section.

What work in a residential setting requires live work?

I can see testing for power at the cash register or at a receptacle (cover on) but where else is it required to have power to work on the electric?

You can test all the wiring with a wiggy or megger so why do you need to work 'live'? Other than it is the way we have done it!
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
What de-energized tests will you perform to identify a suspected voltage drop issue on a branch circuit? How about a lost 'utility neutral'

Voltage drop on a circuit does not require removing the panel cover. Lost neutral can be tested at the meter.

Yes it is 'easier' to test in the panel, and that is what I would do, but what gives us the 'right' to test in the panel?
 
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