Speaking of permits..or avoiding them

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growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Jhaney said:
When we asked for finale inspection he showed again about a week later (POCO had already turned power on and my father was already moveing in), knocked on the door asked where the main panel was and slaped a approved sticker on it and left he didn't inspect a single thing.

That's what happens when you hire an EX-UPS delivery man as an electrical inspector. He was late so he could have been a EX-postal worker.

In some areas an inspection is a joke but in others it's much more serious.

If don't care if they choose to mail it out so long as my paper work is clear. If they choose to do a real inspection that fine also. Part of our job is wading through bureaucratic red tape. On paper everything needs to be legal.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
jflynn said:
why is that?they still need to get the work inspected.

Also why is it in MA, a H.O. can wire there own house but need to hire a plumber/??...

Only if you hire yourself ,..the whole permit process hinges on the for hire bit.

As far as the difference between plumbers and electricians , I was told that the plumbers code was born from a health concern and that the electrical code was more of consumer protection.
 

c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
scwirenut said:
im not saying the homeowner is subbing out, im the EC, the permit has me listed, not the HO, they just go there, apply, and pay.

no different then if I sent my wife...., or secretary if I had one, or employee, they dont care, all they want is the fee....

That would not work in the City of Greenville. If the HO pulls the permit, he best be doing most if not all of the work. If they find it was subbed out to an EC, the EC has to go and transfer the permit to his name/company name.

c2500
 

tonyou812

Senior Member
Location
North New Jersey
electricmanscott said:
Another reason to avoid the headaches of permits.

Had inspection set up for 3 pm Tues afternoon. Wait...wait...wait.....4 o'clock now no inspector.

Call office and there he is. "Ran out of time, I'll be there tomorrow....."

Next one...

Buddy calls inspector (different city) Mon aft for Tues inspection. "Call back in the morning" the guy says rather than just set it up then.

He calls in the am...."I can't get out there today" the guy says

So they set it up for this morning. Buddy waits for an hour then goes into the inspectional service office which was right around the corner.

Inspector bagged in sick today. God forbid they call all the people waiting for inspections......

:rolleyes: :mad:
There are some towns that have their ship together but for the most part I totally and whole heartedly agree.Who is there to regulate them. The guy probably didnt want to be late for dinner so he cut you out. I, in my short experiance in contracting have come accross your problem many times, and its harder for a small guy like me to absorb the lack of billable time. When you have to wait for an inspector for four hours the whole day is practically shot.
Oh and god forbid you say something to the guy hell fail you for something stupid and then when he comes back hell find something else.
 

rcarroll

Senior Member
Sierrasparky said:
How do you handle the job without a permit.

What do you do if a sub complains there is no permit?

What do you do if the job is complete for months and then they apply for a permit and you know this.
1. If the job has no permit & one is required & they get caught, a stop work order is posted & usually a summons.

2. See answer #1.

3. We have a concealed construction affidavit to be signed by the H/O or contractor & a fine is levied.
 

scwirenut

Senior Member
c2500 said:
That would not work in the City of Greenville. If the HO pulls the permit, he best be doing most if not all of the work. If they find it was subbed out to an EC, the EC has to go and transfer the permit to his name/company name.

c2500

the city of greenville may be in violation of The SC Code Of laws. SECTION 40-59-260.Exception for projects by property owner for personal use;

excerpt:

"Disclosure Statement. State law requires residential construction to be done by licensed residential builders and specialty contractors. You have applied for a permit under an exemption to that law. The exemption allows you, as the owner of your property, to act as your own builder even though you do not have a license. You must supervise the construction yourself. You may build or improve a one-family or two-family residence. The building must be for your own use and occupancy. It may not be built for sale or rent. If you sell or rent a building you have built yourself within two years after the construction is complete, the law will presume that you built it for sale or rent, which is a violation of this exemption. You may not hire an unlicensed person as your residential builder or specialty contractor. It is your responsibility to make sure that people employed by you have licenses required by state law and by county or municipal licensing ordinances. Your construction must comply with all applicable laws, ordinances, building codes, and zoning regulations."

http://www.scstatehouse.net/code/t40c059.htm
 

c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
scwirenut said:


You know, you are touching on something that is near and dear to my heart.:grin: I am not saying you are incorrect, I am saying how the law is interpreted here. That form says you will be the builder and only hire licensed contractors. Taking that a step further, as a licensed builder, I can only pull a framing permit in the city. I have to have my residential electrical license to pull electrical permits and my residential plumbers license to pull plumbing permits. WIthout the additional licenses, I would be subbing the work out to someone that had them. Therefore, I see the city's stance on the permit issue. In the county, I can pull all permits under my builder's license.

Also, the law is interpreted as you being an unlicensed individual, can do the work, but it is susposed to be the owner.

Two doors down from me, a friend of mine (who is a licensed builder) pulled owner/builder permits. When it was found out that he was not doing the electrical work himself, the inspector made the ec pull the permit...albeit transfer it to his name.

That form you refer too also says if you rent or sell the property within 2 years, your intent was to break the law. I know of another instance on my street where a guy is owner/builder and has NO intention of living there. I have inquired with the city and they say it is a state law so the state has to enforce it. I know a construction attorney, who says the only people that have standing to complain about non-compliance with the law is the city/county. (yet we will have this turd of a house to contend with because some guy has some money and thinks he is above the law) All told, the law is a load of crap. A great way to waste trees. I emailed the Residential Builders commission, and they never felt the need to reply to my inquiry on enforcement of the law.

Having been on North Carolina's website, they have their act together. They have a one year rule and enforce it from what I can tell.

This said, at least in SC, homeowners theoretically are obligating themselves to live in a home for 2 years from date of final if they pull the permit. I am not sure they realize this, but since enforcement is lax, why does it really matter?

Do they enforce the law in the lower part of the state?

c2500
 

c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
scwirenut said:
i dont believe enforcement is great until a red flag is thrown, such as if the homeowner sells his house before 2 years, then turns around and wants to build another

Which leads to the question...How does the state monitor compliance? They do not. When I added on to my home, I had to file a form with the clerk of court. The city actually ask for proof I had filed the form. Now, their rationale is that if you sign the form that is enough. (the one you presented in PDF format) No proof of court filing necessary. Even then, if I switched counties, who would know? I feel that if the state has a law on the books, there should be a way to monitor it. The house on our street that the guy is breaking the law with will be my example to the legislature when it all shakes out. (I have to wait till he rents it again) Fortunately, our local state representative's brother also lives on the street.

Sadly, I think the state has a law on the books that is subject to abuse by a few (or perhaps alot) ofpeople. I have no issue with the law, and feel anyone should have the right to do their own work or be their own builder. One of the reasons I took the time to get the three licenses I have is so I can do my own work outside of the 2 year law since I buy and sell houses. But, it should be restricted to their primary residence....amazingly, like the law says. No enforcement=abuse.

c2500
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Permits are a local issue. I would recommend always permitting a job, BUT.

1. Some jurisdictions want drawings a load survey for a single 20 amp outlet which drives up the cost for a simple single outlet, Logic should play into some of this. Additionally a permit wait can be 4-8 hours for a 2 hour job. Can you pass this cost along? To some customers but many will simply hire another EC that will do the job without a permit.

2. Some jurisdictions are corrupt. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

3. Some jurisdictions are lousy at performing their job.

4. Some jurisdictions only care about the bucks and it is obvious by the cost of permits compared to the quality of inspector and the pay associated with the inspectors compared to adjacent counties.
 

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
electricmanscott said:
Another reason to avoid the headaches of permits.

Had inspection set up for 3 pm Tues afternoon. Wait...wait...wait.....4 o'clock now no inspector.

Call office and there he is. "Ran out of time, I'll be there tomorrow....."

Next one...

Buddy calls inspector (different city) Mon aft for Tues inspection. "Call back in the morning" the guy says rather than just set it up then.

He calls in the am...."I can't get out there today" the guy says

So they set it up for this morning. Buddy waits for an hour then goes into the inspectional service office which was right around the corner.

Inspector bagged in sick today. God forbid they call all the people waiting for inspections......

:rolleyes: :mad:

Your excuse gives me a great excuse for issueing Notice of Violations..;)
 

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
scwirenut said:
i actually apply for very few permits, if I do work for a homeowner I always give them two prices, one for me getting permit, and one for them to get it, they always choose to save money and get the permit their self, I am listed as the EC, they are the applicant, they call for inspection, meet inspector, ect. I never see the building dept, or inspector. If I do new residential construction, then the GC does all of the above, the only time I go to the building dept is for commercial permits. I tell them for me to drive uptown, wait in line, purchase permit, schedule inspection, meet inspector...add $150...they want to do it everytime to save that.

All I can say is......I do about 15-18 inspections a day and if some of the junk I see was not permitted and inspected....I would fear for the citizens of my area. The permit process ( while sometimes lacking ) is the only true link to being able to ensure compliance and meeting the NEC.

Not all mind you....but some "licensed" electricians do cut corners and we catch them.....who will police them if inspectors dont?
 

rustyryan34

Member
We have alot of problems getting inpectors on our jobs and most of our work is within in 30 min. It realy suck wait on them. Try to explain to the home owner that after doing a service change you cant turn the power back until 2 hour later while you and the power company just sit in their drive way waiting. Then can you honestly bill them for all that time? The fact that you cant call the inpector and get a clear time set up is really hard to get stuff done, when all he can tell you is he will be out their in the afternoon is crazy.
 

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
rustyryan34 said:
We have alot of problems getting inpectors on our jobs and most of our work is within in 30 min. It realy suck wait on them. Try to explain to the home owner that after doing a service change you cant turn the power back until 2 hour later while you and the power company just sit in their drive way waiting. Then can you honestly bill them for all that time? The fact that you cant call the inpector and get a clear time set up is really hard to get stuff done, when all he can tell you is he will be out their in the afternoon is crazy.

Does not seem to be a problem in my area. They back jump the old meter into a new one all the time. In our area Dominion Power can take up to 3-4 weeks to hook someones power up once it is inspected so if the inspectors had to RUN OUT and be at everyones service change on the same day it would not happen but it still does not remove the fact it needs to be inspected before power is hooked up.

Not all electricians are created equal but their license is equal so while their is no EASY fix...it is the best we got.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
All I can say is......I do about 15-18 inspections a day and if some of the junk I see was not permitted and inspected....

Not sure of the size jobs you are looking at, BUT there is no way an adequate through job can be completed at this number of jobs per day.

I would fear for the citizens of my area. The permit process ( while sometimes lacking ) is the only true link to being able to ensure compliance and meeting the NEC.

Thats an assumption you are making based upon your expierence, there are many areas where the inspection process is sadly lacking. The true link IMO is qualified, educated professionals.
 

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
brian john said:
Not sure of the size jobs you are looking at, BUT there is no way an adequate through job can be completed at this number of jobs per day.

You are assuming the TYPE of inspection we are looking at. it can range from a simple wall inspection of only a few receptacles to a full blown commerical project....if it is a multi-family building with 18 apartments...we do them in one day we get 18 inspection credits...

Those are an average......some days well...somedays due to the nature of the inspections more........and consider the rate of pass and fail in that equation.....
 
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