Is this a kitchen counter?

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mivey

Senior Member
charlie b said:
I agree with Bob in this and in his other recent postings. This is not about getting by; it is about doing what is right. A "win" in this situation does not require removal of the question, but rather convincing the inspector of the right answer to the question.
Agreed, but against all hope, not all people are rational. There are some real crazy people out there.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
crossman said:
Now THAT is unethical! How can an EI not know the code and still be an EI?;)

I see the wink but still ...

I don't see that being as being unethical unless the EI misrepresented his abilities to his employer.

Beyond that, everyone, no mater how knowledgeable makes honest mistakes.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
mivey said:
While it might be easier, the world is not all black and white.

No kidding? :grin:

If there is going to be a big stew over the shelf that was added, then just remove it.

And that is IMO letting the fox guard the hen house.

The person at 'risk' for the violation can not objectively decide if the inspector should see it or not.

The world is not Black and White but my own sense what is right and what is underhanded is pretty clear to myself. I don't believe in BS, that is why I could never be a salesman, lawyer or even a successfully EC.
 

crossman

Senior Member
Location
Southeast Texas
But Bob, surely you can understand the sentiment? After a knowledgable EC has run into a few EI hacks, and has had to deal with "phantom codes" and "this is how we do it in my town", the possibility of a solution through "removal of the issue beforehand" may be the path of least resistance. As in - the end justifies the mean?

That is a decision each person would have to make for himself. Unethical? Probably. Expedient? In some cases.

Disclaimer: These activities are performed by highly-trained individuals. Do not try this at home.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
crossman said:
But Bob, surely you can understand the sentiment?

Of course I can. :smile:

the possibility of a solution through "removal of the issue beforehand" may be the path of least resistance.

For myself that is not an option.

I hate waiting in lines at the store but that does not mean I will take the path of least resistance and head straight for the door.


As in - the end justifies the mean?

For myself, in this case the problem does not justify lying which IMO is exactly what is being done by hiding potential snags from the inspector.

That is a decision each person would have to make for himself.

Yes


Unethical?


Yes

Expedient?

Yes.

But expedient is not my only consideration.


I am having a hard time believing I have to defend honesty. :roll:
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I agree with Bob, not only for ethical reasons, but also because it sets a bad precedent. If an inspector is genuinely wrong about something, he should be corrected, not accomodated.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
crossman said:
Which is why it is all the more important that an EI be thoroughly compotent in the NEC and in electrical theory and in common sense.

Regardless, the actions the EC takes are the ECs and are not changed in anyway by the EI.
 

crossman

Senior Member
Location
Southeast Texas
iwire said:
I am having a hard time believing I have to defend honesty. :roll:

You're not having a hard time defending honesty.:)

I just kinda' got myself painted into a corner here, after Mivey's suggestion, I thought it was kind of funny, so I rang in with a "yeah, that's the way to do it!:grin: " Now I find myself defending a postion which I don't necessarily support. But heck, it is still fun!
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
BTW, I can't play poker either. My inner thoughts are easily read on my face. Some people have 'tells' I have 'shouts' :grin: because of that it is nearly imposable for me to look someone in the eye and 'bluff'. :mad:
 

crossman

Senior Member
Location
Southeast Texas
Well, you have made me smile this morning, and have certainly made my day a bit brighter. :smile:

So, if the EC in the OP shows up in the inspector's office with the American Heritage College Dictionary and shows the definition of a countertop, will the EI agree and say "no receptacles needed"?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
crossman said:
So, if the EC in the OP shows up in the inspector's office with the American Heritage College Dictionary and shows the definition of a countertop, will the EI agree and say "no receptacles needed"?

No doubt about it, the EI will change their view immediately and will probably bring the EC out for a nice dinner and a show as thanks for the correction. :grin:
 

crossman

Senior Member
Location
Southeast Texas
iwire said:
No doubt about it, the EI will change their view immediately and will probably bring the EC out for a nice dinner and a show as thanks for the correction.

ROFL! Sweet!

So obviously the suggestion and support of hiding the shelf was totally unethical and unwarranted in the first place. Just goes to show that honesty - is - always - the - best - policy.:smile:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
As an employee I have never been told to fight the inspectors wishes. All the oddball / not NEC things that I have been asked to do by inspectors I have done.

It is expedient and cost effective at least in the short term. None of the items made the installation less safe.

I do now recall a fire dept inspector telling me to solder the EOL resisters onto the conductors 'because they fall off and cause troubles' I kind of nodded my head but 'forgot' to actually solder the EOLs. That was dishonest but he was telling me to do something that could back to haunt me, not him. He was also drunk at the time so I think he forgot about it. :roll:
 

M. D.

Senior Member
iwire said:
Here is what I think, there are two possibilities, the inspector is either correct or mistaken

1)If the the inspector is correct then hiding the violation is without question unethical and I would bet a violtion of the laws in any state.

2)If the inspector is mistaken (and I think they may be) there is no need to hide it. Show the inspector the code and in this case the dictionary. Call the head building official etc.



But IMO in either case choosing to hide things from the inspector is unprofessional and unethical.

That is my personal opinion, it is neither wrong or right but it is my unchanging opinion. We each have to work up to our own standards and lying to get by is not in my SOP.


I would not remove it ,..I might mention that if it were decided that the shelf was no longer desired there would be no need for a receptacle

I would not judge them if they decided to remove the shelf nor would I give a rats backside if they decided at some point that they wanted to reinstall it ,.. I would arm them with the information and definitions and let them decide what course they want to take ..

As I have said,... where the kitchen ends and what shape it takes is for the H.O. to determine. He (O.P.) mentioned the plans had changed they (H.O.) need to identify the new space and it's use.

....it is the responsibility of the building owner or the agent of the
building owner to identify any new or newly created bedrooms
or other space USES.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
M. D. said:
I would not judge them if they decided to remove the shelf nor would I give a rats backside if they decided at some point that they wanted to reinstall it ,.. I would arm them with the information and definitions and let them decide what course they want to take

I pretty much agree there, what the HO does before or after I am there is really none of my business. But if the HO wants to do something that involves my being less then truthful to the inspector I would have no part of it.
 
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