2 wire receptacle replacement.

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romeo

Senior Member
I just got off the phone speacking to an electrician about 2 wire receptacle repacements.He told me that he was going to replace 5, 2 wire receptacles with 5 GFCI receptacles, all on the same circuit.

I told him that was fine but I would also accept 1 GFCI receptacle and the other 4 receptacles could be 3 wire if he installed them in accordance with NEC 406.3(D)(3)(c)

He told me that another inspector told him that was no longer permited.

Am I missing something?

PS

There is no egc available.
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
romeo said:
I just got off the phone speacking to an electrician about 2 wire receptacle repacements.He told me that he was going to replace 5, 2 wire receptacles with 5 GFCI receptacles, all on the same circuit.

I told him that was fine but I would also accept 1 GFCI receptacle and the other 4 receptacles could be 3 wire if he installed them in accordance with NEC 406.3(D)(3)(c)




You are not missing any thing. Your electrician is asleep at the wheel.

As far as I know their has been no change. In 99 the code started letting you use gfci protection instead of pulling the third (grounding) wire.
The third prong even though it is not hooked to any thing. It is considered to be safer. Because the male plug stays in tighter.
It must be marked GFCI Protected and No Equipment Ground.
The code wants it marked no equipment ground so that it is not decieving to others. Say a new buyer, etc...
 

rcarroll

Senior Member
romeo said:
I just got off the phone speacking to an electrician about 2 wire receptacle repacements.He told me that he was going to replace 5, 2 wire receptacles with 5 GFCI receptacles, all on the same circuit.

I told him that was fine but I would also accept 1 GFCI receptacle and the other 4 receptacles could be 3 wire if he installed them in accordance with NEC 406.3(D)(3)(c)

He told me that another inspector told him that was no longer permited.

Am I missing something?

PS

There is no egc available.
Grounding type receps can be fed thru a GFI recep on a 2 wire system. "An equipment ground shall not be connected between the grounding type receps". Same code reference. So a 3 wire or 2 wire w/ground really wouldn't do any good. JMHO
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
romeo said:
He told me that another inspector told him that was no longer permited.
Tell him to ask the inspector for a code reference. It need not be adversarial. Suggest he say something like "Gee, I didn't know that. Could you please tell me the code section so I can get it right?"

Or he could go the other way and say "B.E.! (;)) Prove it!"

One thing to keep in mind for people who do this (the feed-thru-wired GFCI-protected receptacles, not argue with the E.I.):

If you add (or find) a cable with EGC's, they should not be connected to anything: each other, a receptacle, or even a metal box (the EGC, not the cable.)

The reasoning: the interconnection of an EGC could cause a metal-surface fault in one piece of equipment to energize the metal surface of another (piece of equipment, not... um... never mind.)
 

William1978

Senior Member
Location
N.C.
the electrican you were talking to is wrong. you can replace the rec down the line from the GFI with 3 wire rec but they need to be marked GFCI protected and no equipment ground
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
buckofdurham said:
The third prong even though it is not hooked to any thing. It is considered to be safer. Because the male plug stays in tighter.

It's also better to have the ground hole there, so that people won't cut off the ground prong, as they might want to pug that appliance into a grounded outlet at another home.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
LarryFine said:
The reasoning: the interconnection of an EGC could cause a metal-surface fault in one piece of equipment to energize the metal surface of another (piece of equipment, not... um... never mind.)

Exactly. :smile:


Minuteman said:
It's also better to have the ground hole there, so that people won't cut off the ground prong, as they might want to pug that appliance into a grounded outlet at another home.

I know that is the real world but I do want to point out that 250.114 makes ungrounded receptacles pretty much worthless.

It would be a code violation to plug an appliance with an grounded cord into a receptacle without a grounding means.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
It would be a code violation to plug an appliance with an grounded cord into a receptacle without a grounding means.
That can't be right. :-? What's the point of replacing 2-prong receptacles with 3-prong ones if the only plugs you can insert are 2-prong ones?

Adding GFCI protection to a non-EGC-equipped circuit is equally effective with 2- or 3-prong receptacles. Why allow non-EGC'ed 3-prong ones?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
LarryFine said:
That can't be right. :-? What's the point of replacing 2-prong receptacles with 3-prong ones if the only plugs you can insert are 2-prong ones?

There is no point unless it's all you have on hand. That is why IMO your better off leaving the receptacles as two wire and installing the GFCI.

Adding GFCI protection to a non-EGC-equipped circuit is equally effective with 2- or 3-prong receptacles.

Yes the GFCI works as well with both two and three wire receptacles ..... until it does not work and you could have an energized case on equipment.

I was thinking like you are until Don pointed out 250.114 and it changed my view of what the replacement section is really allowing.

There would have to be an exception to 250.114 for the replacement section to mean what I thought it meant. :smile:

It also kind of expalins why the need for a 'no equipment ground' sticker.
 

ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
I understand that 406.3 (D) para. (C) says you can replace a two wire recpt. with a 3 wire.If marked and labeled it has no grounding conductor.

Although he was wrong according to code ,I was once told by an inspector you could not replace a two wire with a three wire also.

The way he seen it was if you have a bad GFI recpt. and someone pluged a piece of eq. in it with a fault in it such as a metal heater grounded to the case it would be a shock hazard and I agree the code is not always right.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
There is no point unless it's all you have on hand.
I find it hard to believe that this is the one place in the NEC they make an exception for poor truck stock.

ronaldrc said:
The way he seen it was if you have a bad GFI recpt. and someone pluged a piece of eq. in it with a fault in it such as a metal heater grounded to the case it would be a shock hazard . . .
Isn't that the case (pardon the pun) with any GFCI installation? If a GFCI malfunctions, there can be a shock hazard.

It sounds like you and Bob are saying that, if the circuit has no EGC, you are not allowed to plug in anything that has a conductive case.

Even equipment that relies on double insulation can be a hazard under the right conditions. If a GFCI malfunctions, electrocution can occur.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
LarryFine said:
I find it hard to believe that this is the one place in the NEC they make an exception for poor truck stock.

I am not sure that it was about truck stock but actually continued affability of new UL listed two wire 15 and 20 amp 125 volt receptacles.

I really do not know why.

Isn't that the case (pardon the pun) with any GFCI installation? If a GFCI malfunctions, there can be a shock hazard.

In all other instances the GFCI is used as a back up to the normal grounding rules. In no case is the GFCI expected to be the primary means of shock protection.

Keep in mind GFCI do not prevent shocks, they limit the duration of a shock.

It sounds like you and Bob are saying that, if the circuit has no EGC, you are not allowed to plug in anything that has a conductive case.

Pretty much, I would phrase more like this;

'if the circuit has no EGC, you are not allowed to plug in anything that has a 3 wire cord cap.

Even equipment that relies on double insulation can be a hazard under the right conditions. If a GFCI malfunctions, electrocution can occur.

You lost me there, double insulated equipment has a two wire cord and can be plugged into the non-grounded outlets. And with both EGCs and double insulation you need to have a physical failure, not just the failure of electronics. Consider the extremely high failure rate of GFCIs have displayed when studies have been done.

Here is OSHAs view on it, they explain it pretty well.

The equipment grounding requirements for cord and plug connected equipment, contained in Section 250-114 of the 1999 NEC, does not provide an exception that permits the use of a GFCI in lieu of equipment grounding. The GFCI provisions, contained in Section 210-7(d), pertain to the requirements for receptacle replacement and not to the grounding of equipment. (2)

The use of a GFCI-type receptacle or GFCI-type circuit breaker in lieu of an equipment grounding conductor run to the receptacle outlet is permitted by the 1999 NEC, Section 210-7, on branch circuits. However, all of the listed conditions must be met to meet this code exception. Section 210-7(d)(3) contains additional marking and wiring requirements that must be met when GFCI-type receptacle(s) or circuit breaker(s) are used when a grounding means is not available. Strict compliance with these NEC requirements would constitute a de minimis violation of OSHA electrical standard ?1910.304(a)(3) as the GFCI-type receptacles would provide additional personnel protection and would not be used in lieu of equipment grounding.

For example, if a GFCI-type receptacle is used, it must be visibly marked "No Equipment Ground," and equipment required to be grounded may not be used in the ungrounded, GFCI-type receptacle. However, many appliances (i.e., lamps; toasters; televisions; double insulated appliances) and tools (i.e., double insulated tools; tools supplied with a low voltage isolating transformer) are not required to be grounded and they may be used in an ungrounded, GFCI-type receptacle. The GFCI feature of these GFCI-type receptacles provides additional electrocution protection in the event of misuse (i.e., a floor buffing machine is powered by a 3-prong plug from a properly marked and wired ungrounded, GFCI-type receptacle).

Obviously that is a little old and NEC sections have moved but not the intent.

The entire OSHA interpretation can be see here.

1999 - 12/21/1999 - Grounding requirements for equipment connected by cord and plug.

Now I know OSHAs view is not an official NEC interpretation but IMO it does match up with the words contained in the NEC.
 
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jameselectric

Senior Member
iwire said:
I am not sure that it was about truck stock but actually continued affability of new UL listed two wire 15 and 20 amp 125 volt receptacles.

I really do not know why.



In all other instances the GFCI is used as a back up to the normal grounding rules. In no case is the GFCI expected to be the primary means of shock protection.

Keep in mind GFCI do not prevent shocks, they limit the duration of a shock.



Pretty much, I would phrase more like this;

'if the circuit has no EGC, you are not allowed to plug in anything that has a 3 wire cord cap.



You lost me there, double insulated equipment has a two wire cord and can be plugged into the non-grounded outlets. And with both EGCs and double insulation you need to have a physical failure, not just the failure of electronics. Consider the extremely high failure rate of GFCIs have displayed when studies have been done.

Here is OSHAs view on it, they explain it pretty well.



Obviously that is a little old and NEC sections have moved but not the intent.

The entire OSHA interpretation can be see here.

1999 - 12/21/1999 - Grounding requirements for equipment connected by cord and plug.

Now I know OSHAs view is not an official NEC interpretation but IMO it does match up with the words contained in the NEC.


Interesting info, i always thought it would be ok, or should i say, the 'lesser of 2 evils' to plug in a 3 prong plug into a gfci that did not have an egc. This may be against code, but the reality is that this is going to continue to go on and i have to say i would rather see the H.O. install gfci in old knob and tube houses (the ones that cant afford to rewire with egc) with the 2 wire receptacles because ive seen too many times where they would cut off the ground prong on the equipment or use those cheap 2 to 3 prong adapter plugs.

At least the gfci provides some degree of protection. Would you not agree??
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
jameselectric said:
Would you not agree??

I agree with all your points. :smile:

1) I also had just assumed 406.3(D)(3) relived us of grounding equipment.

2) Regardless of what the current NEC requires people will plug in whatever they want.

3) In a K&T home I think GFCIs that with two wire receptacles are the best way to go

4) The GFCI protected circuit is safer then a non-GFCI protected circuit.

That all said I still think it is important to know the actual rules even if the HO is going to ignore them.:smile:
 

jameselectric

Senior Member
iwire said:
That all said I still think it is important to know the actual rules even if the HO is going to ignore them.:smile:

Electricians too!! ;) They like to ignore some rules that seem 'too inconvient' sometimes.
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
What about AFCI on a 2 wire system?

Recently a GC friend had me to bid a remodeling on an older home that has 2 wire cable. The first floor is to have the plaster/lath removed and some wall changes, as well as 3 rooms added, the second floor was to remain unchanged. I bid accordingly, new wiring 1st floor and GFCI 2nd. But when the local authority came to look at the old framing, he said that he would require AFCI protection for the bedrooms on the 2nd floor, and that the Afsinc and GFCI's technologies would clash and the old two wire would have to be removed.

Okay by me, as I love change orders ($$$).

Question: Since AFCI has a bit of GFCI technology in it, would not the old 2 wire been okay with just having AFCI and leaving the 2 prong outlets?

BTW, the 1st floor has been gutted and the slab has been poured for the addition, but we have not begin our work yet.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Minuteman said:
Since AFCI has a bit of GFCI technology in it, would not the old 2 wire been okay with just having AFCI and leaving the 2 prong outlets?

No, the GFCI part of the AFCI is not Class A GFCI protection. It has a higher trip level then a Class A GFCI.

But you could use an AFCI breaker supplying a GFCI device then onto the receptacles.
 
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