Residential question

[olly]

I have a outdoor breaker panel, I have a 1 1/4 male adaptor I will use for a chase for the home runs. (probably about 10 romex wires) I plan on sealing with expanding foam when done. How many wires can I have pass through there? I sure as hell don't want to derate my conductors, but I don't believe I need to since the "raceway" is under 18". The chase itself is only as long as a male adaptor.

Could someone let me know what the rule is with this situation? When you use one big hole to pass all your wires through.

Thanks!

 

[LarryFine]

"The rule" is to use a separate cable connector for each one or two cables per instructions.

I suggest asking your inspector for acceptable alternatives.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

312.5(C) allows this if the conduit is going upward. I have no idea why. Around here it is done often with 2"pvc below the panel with an lb into the crawl area or basement.

I don't believe fill is an issue since it is a sleeve and not a complete raceway.

Derating also would not come into play

 

[infinity]

I have a outdoor breaker panel, I have a 1 1/4 male adaptor I will use for a chase for the home runs. (probably about 10 romex wires) I plan on sealing with expanding foam when done. How many wires can I have pass through there? I sure as hell don't want to derate my conductors, but I don't believe I need to since the "raceway" is under 18". The chase itself is only as long as a male adaptor.

Could someone let me know what the rule is with this situation? When you use one big hole to pass all your wires through.

Thanks!

There is nothing you can do to make this code compliant according to the NEC.

 

[Hv&Lv]

There is nothing you can do to make this code compliant according to the NEC.

could you elaborate since it seems you and Dennis are in disagreement?

 

[oldsparky52]

Are these cable coming into the back of the panel enclosure below the bus?

 

[Coppersmith]

Is this chase coming out the back of the panel and through a wall? If so this is not compliant. Each cable needs to be in a NM connector. An alternative is to put a box or trough on the other side of the wall and connect to the panel with proper raceway. Cables coming into the trough would require a connector. The trough would need to be accessible with a removable panel if covered by a drywall. This setup would eliminate the need to have many penetrations into the panel. There is no need to make joints in the trough. Just run the stripped conductors from the trough into the panel. Now that I think about it, the trough may not require accessibility if there are no joints (including grounds).

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Infinity is correct. If there was a pipe run out of the top of the panel it would be compliant. Nothing in the nec allows the install mentioned.

 

[oldsparky52]

Is this chase coming out the back of the panel and through a wall? If so this is not compliant.

I think (not sure) that this is still allowed around here.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

My statement says not compliant however it is allowed in my area and many other areas across the country

 

[oldsparky52]

My statement says not compliant however it is allowed in my area and many other areas across the country

Why do you think that is? The local AHJ is pretty sharp and enforces the code (mostly) as written.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Not all AHJs are sharp nor enforces all codes...
got one here that is basically lazy and won’t look hard, especially if he knows you..
only looks at the simple stuff.. 2 rods, grounds in boxes tied together (checks one or two boxes), and a light in crawlspace. Only bends over, won’t actually go in...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Why do you think that is? The local AHJ is pretty sharp and enforces the code (mostly) as written.

Quite frankly it is because there really isn't a better way to do this with an outdoor panel. Sure you can add a jb inside and splice all the wires but is that really better?

 

[infinity]

My statement says not compliant however it is allowed in my area and many other areas across the country

I believe that some locales allow this type of installation given the number of photo's I've seen of panels with either a chase nipple, terminal adapter or 2" SE cable connector in the back of the panel. The NEC doesn't allow that but in some places it's either not enforced as written or just simply allowed.

 

[chrismarcellino]

The exception for an upward sleeve out of a panel in 312.5(c ) must be greater than 18” (but less than 10 ft.) and follow conduit fill requirements, and I don’t think either are satisfied here. No need to derate but you need to calculate fill, and 10 12/2 NM will give 38% fill in a 2” PVC 40 raceway. 1-1/4” can only take 4 12/2 or 5 14/2. Need to secure with a foot of the top.

Also, use something non-flammable to seal the top like duct seal, while will also allow for easier future work.

312.5c

“(1) Each cable is fastened within 12 in., measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.

(2) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.

(3) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain accessible after installation.

(4) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.

(5) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 1/4 in.

(6) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.

(7) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto.”

 

[Coppersmith]

This thread has some useful info especially post #14 written by yours truly.

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/getting-outdoor-panel-branch-wiring-inside.137884/

 

[chrismarcellino]

Yeah, and I should have mentioned can do 60% fill up to 24”, and over 24”derating is required 310.15(B)(2)(a) and notes to tables (4) in Chapter 9. So you can get close but not quite there.

But I missed the outdoor part and NM. Probably need to go back to the drawing board.

 

[Coppersmith]

Another suggestion for exterior panels is to cut a slot (or series of holes) in the wall five inches below the exterior panel, run the cables though the slot and fasten with connectors to the bottom of the panel. Fasten a pressure treated 1x2 between the panel and the slot and staple the cables down. Have a weatherproof metal cover fabricated that is six inches tall and the width of the panel. Fasten it to the bottom of the panel and the wall. The cover will protect the cables from physical and weather damage. I'd check with the inspector first to make sure they will accept this arrangement since the cover is not listed.

 

[oldsparky52]

Another suggestion for exterior panels is to cut a slot in the wall five inches below the exterior panel, run the cables though the slot and fasten with connectors to the bottom of the panel. Fasten a pressure treated 1x2 between the panel and the slot and staple the cables down. Have a weatherproof metal cover fabricated that is six inches tall and the width of the panel. Fasten it to the bottom of the panel and the wall. The cover will protect the cables from physical and weather damage.

Have you ever done this or come across this?

 

[Coppersmith]

Have you ever done this or come across this?

I have not done this or come across this but I think it would be compliant. I have made repairs, replacements, and additions to many outdoor panels, but never installed one in new construction where this technique would be needed. I talked about this technique in a post a while back, but I can't find the post to link.