2 prong Ungrounded outlets

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ScottA23

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Engineer
If you have 2 wire residential outlet box with no ground, I heard you can put a GFI at that box and put the label No Equipment Ground.
My question is If you have a house with 14 of these outlets 3 in each bedroom and the rest in the living room of a 1955 year old house, do you have to put in 14 GFI outlets to get the 3 prong outlet that is desired?
Or is there other options with like putting in a GFI breaker on those circuits and changing out the outlets to regular 3 prong outlets.
I'm selling my Dads 65 year old house and without damaging the walls and trying to get a ground wire there what are my code options without just leaving the 2 prong outlets because new homeowners and there realtors want 3 prong outlets?
 
Yes, you can have GFCI breakers installed.

Roger
 
You can do feed through on the gfi, but the likelihood of the rest of the receptacles being loop fed is slim. As Roger replied, gfci breaker would be the way to go.
 
hillbilly1 said:
You can do feed through on the gfi, but the likelihood of the rest of the receptacles being loop fed is slim. As Roger replied, gfci breaker would be the way to go.
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Yes, much cheaper than 14 GFCI receptacles.
 
In the old days, they used to spider them from the lighting box in the ceiling because there usually was just one outlet on each wall regardless of the room size.
 
I wouldn't waste my time changing them out.

If that what is takes to seal the deal, I'd negotiate a price and let them do it once they become the new owners.

Sometimes, if not most,changing things out snowballs into more work than it's worth.

Jap>
 
I always recommend leaving the non-grounding receptacles, and instead running one or two new circuits to those points where grounding is necessary and expected, such as appliances, computer systems, audio/video systems, etc.

This alleviates concentrated point loads on the existing wiring, and provides the actual grounding that those loads a meant to have. In my opinion, installing non-grounded grounding receptacles is a total waste of time and materials.
 
Are you doing this work yourself?
Any receptacles replaced have to be AFCI and GFCI if no ground, can use dual function or, or AFCI breaker at the panel and then GFCI breakers.
See section 406.4 (D)
 
ScottA23 said:
because new homeowners and there realtors want 3 prong outlets
Click to expand...

Yeah, and they want a brand new house too for what you are selling it for. The idiots are buying a 65 year old house, that's what they get along with all the other problems they're going to find. If you were going to buy a 20 year old car, would you tell the owner to put in a nav system and air bags before you bought it?

jap said:
If that what is takes to seal the deal, I'd negotiate a price and let them do it once they become the new owners.
Click to expand...

I would tell them to pound sand. This is my price, take it or leave it!

And tell YOUR realtor to bring around more qualified prospects. No Millennials! :mad:

-Hal
 
Coincidentally, I was hired to separate the neutrals and grounds from shared holes today. No issue; a HI noted it.

I also replaced the disposer, including the drain piping. Y'know the hardest part? The tiny wiring compartment.
 
LarryFine said:
I always recommend leaving the non-grounding receptacles, and instead running one or two new circuits to those points where grounding is necessary and expected, such as appliances, computer systems, audio/video systems, etc.

This alleviates concentrated point loads on the existing wiring, and provides the actual grounding that those loads a meant to have. In my opinion, installing non-grounded grounding receptacles is a total waste of time and materials.
Click to expand...

Yeah I agree. Of course many people (even many electricians unfortunately) dont fully understand what the ground prong does and doesnt do ("important for sensitive electronics"), and in addition, they forgot how few general use resi things actually are three prong :rolleyes:
 
480sparky said:
Install the disposal pigtail before installing it on the sink.
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Well, duh! :unsure: Just kidding. I'm a champion of doing as much pre-assembly as I can while I'm still in a comfortable position. "If you want to know the easiest was to perform a difficult task, as a lazy person."

We don't wire our disposers that way here. Every one I have ever installed, wired, or even seen has been hard-wired with #12 NM in 1/2" FMC with an angle connector on it. The bottom plate has a thread-like stamping, so no locknut is needed.
 
electrofelon said:
Yeah I agree. Of course many people (even many electricians unfortunately) dont fully understand what the ground prong does and doesnt do ("important for sensitive electronics"), and in addition, they forgot how few general use resi things actually are three prong :rolleyes:
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Exactamundo. I started playing with electronics when I was six, and built foxhole and crystal radios. The head of my bed just happened to be next to the hall bath's tub shut-off valve access, so I had access to a decent ground.

And again, the new circuit provides a dependable circuit as well as ground, and relieves the original wiring of new modern loads.
 
LarryFine said:
I always recommend leaving the non-grounding receptacles, and instead running one or two new circuits to those points where grounding is necessary and expected, such as appliances, computer systems, audio/video systems, etc.

This alleviates concentrated point loads on the existing wiring, and provides the actual grounding that those loads a meant to have. In my opinion, installing non-grounded grounding receptacles is a total waste of time and materials.
Click to expand...

What pray tell us a concentrated point load on NM wiring? Is this where you hang the receptacles off staples hanging from exposed joists? Or is this where you use 3 $10 power strips daisy chained?
 
hbiss said:
Yeah, and they want a brand new house too for what you are selling it for. The idiots are buying a 65 year old house, that's what they get along with all the other problems they're going to find. If you were going to buy a 20 year old car, would you tell the owner to put in a nav system and air bags before you bought it?



I would tell them to pound sand. This is my price, take it or leave it!

And tell YOUR realtor to bring around more qualified prospects. No Millennials! :mad:

-Hal
Click to expand...

FHA loans require bringing things up to Code. Very annoying. It’s a market thing though...if it doesn’t meet FHA then first time buyers can’t get an FHA loan on the property. That doesn’t stop them from getting an 80/10/10 or 80/15/5 or straight up loan over 80%, and it is cheaper. FHA and B/C loans are part of what caused the 2009 mess anyway.

The thing is if you have ungrounded receptacles you also probably have the wiring types known for fires anyways and the difference in labor and materials to pull 1 conductor vs. 3 if you also follow the code for neat and professional (not tract home style!) means it’s just as easy to pull all new.
 
ScottA23 said:
If you have 2 wire residential outlet box with no ground, I heard you can put a GFI at that box and put the label No Equipment Ground.
My question is If you have a house with 14 of these outlets 3 in each bedroom and the rest in the living room of a 1955 year old house, do you have to put in 14 GFI outlets to get the 3 prong outlet that is desired?
Or is there other options with like putting in a GFI breaker on those circuits and changing out the outlets to regular 3 prong outlets.
I'm selling my Dads 65 year old house and without damaging the walls and trying to get a ground wire there what are my code options without just leaving the 2 prong outlets because new homeowners and there realtors want 3 prong outlets?
Click to expand...
Is the old wiring BX where, now, you may be able to use the sheath as the EGC? You would just need to run a gnd wire from the metal box to the 3wire duplex and make sure that the connection has continunity.
 
paulengr said:
What pray tell us a concentrated point load on NM wiring? Is this where you hang the receptacles off staples hanging from exposed joists? Or is this where you use 3 $10 power strips daisy chained?
Click to expand...
More of the latter. I'm thinking of a comprehensive surround-sound audio/video system, or a home-office computer system with printers and other peripherals. What other residential loads require grounding receptacles?
 
paulengr said:
FHA loans require bringing things up to Code. Very annoying. It’s a market thing though...if it doesn’t meet FHA then first time buyers can’t get an FHA loan on the property. That doesn’t stop them from getting an 80/10/10 or 80/15/5 or straight up loan over 80%, and it is cheaper. FHA and B/C loans are part of what caused the 2009 mess anyway.

The thing is if you have ungrounded receptacles you also probably have the wiring types known for fires anyways and the difference in labor and materials to pull 1 conductor vs. 3 if you also follow the code for neat and professional (not tract home style!) means it’s just as easy to pull all new.
Click to expand...
And it is up to the buyer to make sure it is done. It is their loan not the sellers loan.

If they can talk the seller into doing it for them that is acceptable but not required. The only thing that makes buyer vs seller do it is negotiations. Seller could accept a lower price and tell purchaser it is on them to make whatever changes they want in compromise, He could tell them he wants more if he makes improvements, or he could just say he wants what he wants and it is "as is".
 
paulengr said:
What pray tell us a concentrated point load on NM wiring? Is this where you hang the receptacles off staples hanging from exposed joists? Or is this where you use 3 $10 power strips daisy chained?
Click to expand...
Point load on NM wiring:
space-heater.jpespace-heater2.jpe

I often see one in every room in a 1950's house.
 
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