2017 NEC kitchen island breaker question

[Spucknit]

I am nearing the completion of a project where my electrician has run (1) 12-2, and (1) 12-3 to the kitchen island. The island has the garbage disposal, dishwasher, and (2) outlets. It's our upstanding that everything needs to be both AFCI, and GFCI, and on separate breakers. The issue is that we cannot install all 3 on separate AFCI breakers with just the 2 neutrals without the AFCIs tripping. The easy answer s to run another neutral, but of course the conduit is compromised under the slab, and the flooring is complete. Is there anyway we can make this set up legal without having to run a third neutral? Any advise would be appreciated.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Most manufacturers make dp breakers that are both afci/gfci. It should be doable depending on the brand panel.

 

[infinity]

What kind of 12-2 and 12-3 did he run? NM cable is not permitted in conduit under a slab.

 

[ramsy]

..of course the conduit is compromised under the slab, and the flooring is complete..

If cables are listed for wet location, aren't damaged, and pass Megger, outlet devices are often used without dual-function breakers. Of course laborers may not know how thats done.

 

[McLintock]

It is my understanding and reading of 210.8 and 210.12 you do not need AFCI/GFCI protection on a dishwasher or a disposal. The two outlets need AFCI/GFCI according to ‘17 code.

The 12/3 is for the dishwasher and disposal, just spilt the hot side of the outlet


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

 

[ramsy]

It is my understanding and reading of 210.8 and 210.12 you do not need AFCI/GFCI protection on a dishwasher or a disposal. The two outlets need AFCI/GFCI according to ‘17 code..

Requirement for Dishwasher AFCI may be found in appliance section.

Not withstanding local amendments
http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/building/plan-review/Building Codes/2017_NEC_Amendments.pdf

 

[McLintock]

Requirement for Dishwasher AFCI may be found in appliance section.

Ok, I was wrong dishwashers need GFCI protection 210.8 (D). But the AFCI I can not find at all even in the application section, so if you could supply Articles number it would be helpful


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

 

[ramsy]

Requirement for Dishwasher GFCI may be found in 210.8(D)

AFCI protection for all kitchen Plugs & Devices 210.12(A)

Replacement code for A/GFCI protections found in 406.4(D)(3),(4),(5),(6)

 

[McLintock]

Here in Wisconsin, kitchens are exempt from the AFCI requirements. But why would you put an AFCI on a circuit that is dedicated to a stationary appliance? So does you range need AFCI? I can see outlets for small appliances, but a dishwasher is not a movable appliance, put it away when not using it.


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

 

[electrofelon]

But why would you put an AFCI on a circuit that is dedicated to a stationary appliance?

Because it's required by code?

 

[ramsy]

Here in Wisconsin, kitchens are exempt from the AFCI requirements..

When the question was asked, at IAEI SoCal Chapter in July 2019, how New Jersey was able to accomplish a state-wide amendment against AFCI's, the person presenting AFCI development history explained, New Jersey's code-making panel includes contractor associations that represent production shops reliant on laborers.

Without local-language skills, able to interrogate tech support, many of the most valuable production laborers can't ask if simple breaker updates are available, much less setup security, wireless, and other emerging technology that demands literacy with instruction manuals.

Rather than hire installers who have mastered the local language enough to read instructions, or check for breaker updates, it may be easier to lobby code-making advocates already in place, to locally amend the code, removing the challenge of emerging technology.

Removing barriers to entry against shops run by laborers may also avoid problematic expenses associated with literacy; such as higher rates of workman's compensation & unemployment claims, higher medical costs from deleterious vaping habbits, substance abuse, and theft of shop materials, tools, and vehicle use for personal side jobs.

Its a free country. If employers want to avoid deleterious delinquents on permanent-production payrolls, why can't they amend the code to keep it simple enough for illiterate laborers.

 

[McLintock]

Because it's required by code?

Yes I see that, but why is it there? What hazard is there if the appliance is never unplugged, except when changing the appliance?


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

 

[infinity]

When the question was asked, at IAEI SoCal Chapter in July 2019, how New Jersey was able to accomplish a state-wide amendment against AFCI's, the person presenting AFCI development history explained, New Jersey's code-making panel includes contractor associations that represent production shops reliant on laborers.

Without local-language skills, able to interrogate tech support, many of the most valuable production laborers can't ask if simple breaker updates are available, much less setup security, wireless, and other emerging technology that demands literacy with instruction manuals.

Rather than hire installers who have mastered the local language enough to read instructions, or check for breaker updates, it may be easier to lobby code-making advocates already in place, to locally amend the code, removing the challenge of emerging technology.

Removing barriers to entry against shops run by laborers may also avoid problematic expenses associated with literacy; such as higher rates of workman's compensation & unemployment claims, higher medical costs from deleterious vaping habbits, substance abuse, and theft of shop materials, tools, and vehicle use for personal side jobs.

Its a free country. If employers want to avoid deleterious delinquents on permanent-production payrolls, why can't they amend the code to keep it simple enough for illiterate laborers.

Do you have a reference for this story because it sounds somewhat bogus.

 

[Fred B]

AFCI are intended to protect wiring and termination points from low level arcs that results in overheating and potential fire. This is not contingent on movement of end use device. Also actions by a person or animal can damage a wire exposing a wire to lower level arcs that might not trip overload breaker ,dead short, but would compromise wire integrity and heating. (Had case where carpenter hit wire with nail putting up finish trim on ceiling near light fixture, would trip an afci breaker, but not a standard breaker. Found nail damaged wire, repaired, no more tripping) Even simple temperature changes in wiring caused by appliance normal use can cause improperly terminated connections to open enough to cause an arc situation with its associated hazards.

 

[electrofelon]

Yes I see that, but why is it there? What hazard is there if the appliance is never unplugged, except when changing the appliance?


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

Without getting into a debate about whether AFCI''s are effective and work, they are not there just to protect plugs and cords. If that was the case, we would only need an AFCI at the first branch circuit outlet.

 

[ramsy]

Do you have a reference for this story because it sounds somewhat bogus.

I was the attending member who asked about New Jersey's AFC amendment.

The response to my question was much shorter, within the first paragraph in post #11 above.

Why, does running jobs with laborers sound bogus to you?

 

[curt swartz]

Most manufacturers make dp breakers that are both afci/gfci. It should be doable depending on the brand panel.

Last I checked there were no 2-pole DF breakers made. Only single pole. You can get 2-pole AF only or 2-pole GF only but not DF.

 

[ramsy]

Last I checked there were no 2-pole DF breakers made.

See post #4

 

[electrofelon]

See post #4

A bit unclear what you mean in post #4. Do you mean use an AFCI breaker and GFCI receps?

 

[electrofelon]

When the question was asked, at IAEI SoCal Chapter in July 2019, how New Jersey was able to accomplish a state-wide amendment against AFCI's, the person presenting AFCI development history explained, New Jersey's code-making panel includes contractor associations that represent production shops reliant on laborers.

Without local-language skills, able to interrogate tech support, many of the most valuable production laborers can't ask if simple breaker updates are available, much less setup security, wireless, and other emerging technology that demands literacy with instruction manuals.

Rather than hire installers who have mastered the local language enough to read instructions, or check for breaker updates, it may be easier to lobby code-making advocates already in place, to locally amend the code, removing the challenge of emerging technology.

Removing barriers to entry against shops run by laborers may also avoid problematic expenses associated with literacy; such as higher rates of workman's compensation & unemployment claims, higher medical costs from deleterious vaping habbits, substance abuse, and theft of shop materials, tools, and vehicle use for personal side jobs.

Its a free country. If employers want to avoid deleterious delinquents on permanent-production payrolls, why can't they amend the code to keep it simple enough for illiterate laborers.

I'm kinda really just all around lost with this. I just don't understand why laborers are doing electrical work and what this and lack of English speaking skills has to do with AFCI''S.