480V flow switch

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chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
I have a 5hp pump motor (well pump) that needs to start when someone opens a valve and pressure drops.
I would like a flow switch to energize the 480V coil of a motor starter.
Pump guy is telling me he can’t get one and a quick Google search comes up empty.

Anyone ever used one? Would like to avoid the control transform route if possible.

Thanks
 

Beaches EE

Senior Member
Location
NE Florida
Occupation
Electrical Engineer / Facilities Manager
Can you run the water pressure sensing pipe from outside to an indoor location and mount the switch inside?
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
As Tom said, it’s typically done with a pressure switch, not a flow switch, and pressure switches are readily available with line voltage rated contacts. You can’t use a flow switch in lieu of the pressure switch, the logic doesn’t work out.

Or is the flow switch just there to confirm that the pump is pumping after the pressure switch starts it?
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
No pressure tank, 2” well riser to pump then 2” out to hose locations. Picture fire hoses but these are used for dust control at an outdoor recycling facility.
The goal is when someone opens any hose valve the pump starts.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
I don’t think a flow switch would do what you want to do, as others have said, a pressure switch and bladder tank is needed. You could use a valve activated switch at each valve, set it to turn the pump on and off at 30-50% of valve opening. That would eliminate the need for the bladder tank and pressure switch.
 

RumRunner

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
Occupation
Retired EE
To extend where JR made an excellent point.
If I’m overly prolix, I apologize.

Well Pumps don’t have residual pressure that is omnipresent in the piping system. The only time it creates pressure is when the pump is pumping.

The thing that is important to realize is: Well pumps are not created equal.
There are two kinds of pumps. . . centrifugal and positive displacement pumps. Each model has different characteristic.

For most highly efficient systems--like fire pumps--this positive displacement type is desirable. It can work against the higher head pressure as opposed to centrifugal type.

Regardless of the type you choose for this application—the scenario as mentioned above is still the same.
No residual pressure exist when the pump is idle. Therefore, pressure switch or flow switch would NOT work, if at all.

Hammering in the system is not possible. Hammering is caused by trapped air that is getting compressed and decompressed inside a dead-end piping. This is not possible when you open a valve--- when pressure is relieved.
Totally submerged pumps are usually centrifugal, and pumps that are mounted above water level are positive displacement type.

Positive displacement pumps require priming since it is dealing with dry piping --while centrifugal pumps don’t need priming because they are submerged. They are controlled by float switch. . . running them dry could destroy them.

Centrifugal pumps PUSH water (or any liquid) while positive displacement pumps PULL or lift water to deliver. One is a pusher the other one is a sucker.

Positive displacement pumps can either be a gear pump , screw type pump (the Archimedes Type) --piston or diaphragm type-- and are more expensive,

Now, the above narrative doesn’t answer your question about : a control that can operate a motor when a valve is open or the pressure drops.

The answer is NO.

You cannot have a pressure drop when there is no pressure to contend with in the beginning. (Note JR's post)
NO VFD , Pressure switch, or Flow Switch can be installed that will work in this kind of environment.

There is a way to do this and accomplish the result-- but you are only asking whether a flow or pressure switch would work-- owing to the PARSIMONIOUS approach (what you have in mind) in carrying out this task. You don’t want to spend the money. :)

If this forum is capable of calling out past comments—this problem was brought up in the past.
It required some control to shut water feeding a watering (drinking ) tub for grazing cattle.

Something like three years ago.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
To extend where JR made an excellent point.
If I’m overly prolix, I apologize.

Well Pumps don’t have residual pressure that is omnipresent in the piping system. The only time it creates pressure is when the pump is pumping.

The thing that is important to realize is: Well pumps are not created equal.
There are two kinds of pumps. . . centrifugal and positive displacement pumps. Each model has different characteristic.

For most highly efficient systems--like fire pumps--this positive displacement type is desirable. It can work against the higher head pressure as opposed to centrifugal type.

Regardless of the type you choose for this application—the scenario as mentioned above is still the same.
No residual pressure exist when the pump is idle. Therefore, pressure switch or flow switch would NOT work, if at all.

Hammering in the system is not possible. Hammering is caused by trapped air that is getting compressed and decompressed inside a dead-end piping. This is not possible when you open a valve--- when pressure is relieved.
Totally submerged pumps are usually centrifugal, and pumps that are mounted above water level are positive displacement type.

Positive displacement pumps require priming since it is dealing with dry piping --while centrifugal pumps don’t need priming because they are submerged. They are controlled by float switch. . . running them dry could destroy them.

Centrifugal pumps PUSH water (or any liquid) while positive displacement pumps PULL or lift water to deliver. One is a pusher the other one is a sucker.

Positive displacement pumps can either be a gear pump , screw type pump (the Archimedes Type) --piston or diaphragm type-- and are more expensive,

Now, the above narrative doesn’t answer your question about : a control that can operate a motor when a valve is open or the pressure drops.

The answer is NO.

You cannot have a pressure drop when there is no pressure to contend with in the beginning. (Note JR's post)
NO VFD , Pressure switch, or Flow Switch can be installed that will work in this kind of environment.

There is a way to do this and accomplish the result-- but you are only asking whether a flow or pressure switch would work-- owing to the PARSIMONIOUS approach (what you have in mind) in carrying out this task. You don’t want to spend the money. :)

If this forum is capable of calling out past comments—this problem was brought up in the past.
It required some control to shut water feeding a watering (drinking ) tub for grazing cattle.

Something like three years ago.
A pressure switch will work in conjunction with a bladder tank, most well pumps have an integral check valve that prevents loss of pressure if all valves are closed. But if the pump has high volume output, it may require a large bladder tank, as a small one may cause frequent cycling, if the load is smaller than the output capabilities of the pump.
 

Beaches EE

Senior Member
Location
NE Florida
Occupation
Electrical Engineer / Facilities Manager
This is a generic schematic & basic description of a submersible pump system for reference. One of the key components is the pressure tank, which maintains a reference pressure and enables the use of a pressure switch with adjustable cut-in / cut-out pressures to control the pump.
1593024915911.png
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Hammering in the system is not possible. Hammering is caused by trapped air that is getting compressed and decompressed inside a dead-end piping. This is not possible when you open a valve--- when pressure is relieved.
Totally submerged pumps are usually centrifugal, and pumps that are mounted above water level are positive displacement type.
A common misconception about water hammer. When a solid column of water is moving at a constant speed it has a significant amount of momentum. Stopping the water flow (such as by closing valve) requires exerting sufficient force to counteract that momentum, and incidentally to absorb the kinetic energy present in the moving water.
The shorter the distance the water can move while stopping the higher the force required. And the shorter time over which the energy is dissipated the greater the power involved. If there is no column of air at the valve end of the moving water column, the forces generated when the valve is closed quickly can be damaging as well as generate noise. Two solutions are:
1. Close the valve slowly. This should be part of the operating training for anyone using the washdown hoses. A valve which requires multiple turns to close will automatically be more forgiving than a 1/4 turn ball valve.
2. Make sure there is an air column (surge chamber) just upstream of the valve, to allow the water to decelerate more gradually. This is the vertical stub at a tee found on good home plumbing at each valve location. If the air dissolves into the water, the effect is lost and you have to refill the air column by draining the pipes and refilling.
You often see open topped vertical pipes near low pressure-high flow irrigation pumps. They serve as a pressure relief when the downstream valves are closed.
 

Russs57

Senior Member
Location
Miami, Florida, USA
Occupation
Maintenance Engineer
Ashcroft offers a number of suitable pressure switches.

Go with something like what Beaches EE has posted.

If the hoses are used quite often better it might be better to keep the pump running. Typically you use a 3-way valve and route water back to suction side of pump. Partly depends on what type of pump as to how to go about it. I wouldn't want to see the pump start/stop every 60 seconds.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
If there's a check valve, the pressure will stay up when all the valves are closed and the pump will stay off until one's opened.
If not, and it's not a positive-displacement pump, water will flow back through the pump as soon as it turns off, and it will turn back on a few seconds later. Then off when the pressure builds back up, then on again, ...

If there's a significant amount of pipe/hose (aka. pressure drop) between the pressure sensor and the nozzles, and there's an insignificant amount of pipe between the pressure sensor and the pump, the pressure change might be small and the system might be finicky.

If there's a significant amount of hose, and it's ordinary flexible fabric fire hose, I don't think water hammer will be a problem. (but I would also never counsel against a pressure tank or air column)
 
Last edited:

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
1. Close the valve slowly. This should be part of the operating training for anyone using the washdown hoses. A valve which requires multiple turns to close will automatically be more forgiving than a 1/4 turn ball valve.

That's why I believe that using a mechanical cam switch or limit switch set at a pecentage of the valve opening and closing would allow the pump to start and stop with limited pressure being excerted on the line. It would be the simplest solution.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
If there's a check valve, the pressure will stay up when all the valves are closed and the pump will stay off until one's opened.
If not, and it's not a positive-displacement pump, water will flow back through the pump as soon as it turns off, and it will turn back on a few seconds later. Then off when the pressure builds back up, then on again, ...
...
But... I have NEVER seen a positive displacement well pump for water. Oil, yes, but not water. Well pumps are mostly either submersible turbines, shallow well surface, or jet pumps. But all of them centrifugal, so when you turn them off, there is insufficient residual pressure in the pipe to activate a flow switch.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
... I have NEVER seen a positive displacement well pump for water. ...
Neither have I, but I'm also never going to assume that I've seen everything.

I have seen positive-displacement pumps for water and aqueous chemical solutions for other applications -- carbonators, pressure washers, process metering, et al. Admittedly not on a well, but I'll never underestimate Appalachian Engineerin'.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
When I was young the pump we had set under the kitchen sink. It pumped water from the cistern into the pressure tank. Twenty foot lift at the most. Pretty sure it was positive displacement. I believe wind mills dotted throughout the Sandhills would be positive displacement as well.
 
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