Canless Can Light?

[Jerramundi]

Maybe I'm little behind the times, but these types of recessed lighting are relatively new to me. To be quite honest, the idea of a recessed light WITHOUT a housing kind of blows my mind... as well as makes worry slightly about the future of our trade... *grumble, grumble*

I've installed these a few times in areas where NM cable is acceptable and IMHO, they're not as convenient as they seem. Most installations I've seen, the installer just rests the box on top of the drywall... and that just seems like a huge NO to me, especially give the clear presence of screw holes for mounting... which is actually kinda tricky to do if your like me and insist the box be fastened to the building structure.

My question is... would something like this be acceptable if your local municipality has outlawed NM cable in its' entirety?

I know this product isn't using the typical NM cable we're used to, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.
I feel like if that cable is 120V, then it needs to be in a metal raceway, especially if your local municipality has outlawed NM cable, which mine has.

Thoughts?

 

[480sparky]

MC to mounted junction box, then a fixture whip to the light.

Bam. Done.

But I don't work in Chicago, so I run NM to 'em all day long. I just need to make sure my layout only has no more than 2 cables to each light.... there's not enough room for 3 in those boxes.

 

[electrofelon]

The issue of securing the jbox has been discussed on here before. I dont see what the use or non use of NM has to do with anything - the cable between the jbox and the light is part of the listed light assembly.

 

[480sparky]

The issue of securing the jbox has been discussed on here before. I dont see what the use or non use of NM has to do with anything - the cable between the jbox and the light is part of the listed light assembly.

I think the question is quite clear (and relevant).

..........My question is... would something like this be acceptable if your local municipality has outlawed NM cable in its' entirety?.....

 

[electrofelon]

I think the question is quite clear (and relevant).

I am still not following....

 

[synchro]

... I know this product isn't using the typical NM cable we're used to, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.
I feel like if that cable is 120V, then it needs to be in a metal raceway, especially if your local municipality has outlawed NM cable, which mine has.

Thoughts?

View attachment 2553663

The J-box contains a driver which converts the 120V down to a relatively low voltage for the LEDs, very likely less than 30V.
The following excerpt from the Chicago Electrical Code for low voltage lighting would allow the wiring system of the fixture above assuming that it's listed:

 

[LarryFine]

Thoughts?

Mine:

For new work, make a map of every light location, wire and attach J-box to joist; then cut hole, plug in and install light at trim.

For old work, make hole, fish in cable and wire to J-box, attach box to joist if you can and want to, plug in and install light.

 

[marmathsen]

For new work, make a map of every light location, wire and attach J-box to joist; then cut hole, plug in and install light at trim.

I prefer to use pans like these when prewiring for new construction. Although I wish they had a lip like standard can lights. They have little nubs that the j-box locks onto. We leave some wire hanging out in hopes that the drywallers cut them out properly, but of course have some slack that we can pull out when they nick them with their Dremel.

PSA - the different models vary in their required depth, and they mean what they say. Make sure you check that long before it's too late

Rob

 

[Dennis Alwon]

We just install about 150 of those fixtures in a remodel job. Where the ceiling were furred down 1 1/2", it is a deck house, we used the pan shown above.

 

[480sparky]

I am still not following....

The question is simple: What do you do if your AHJ has disallowed NM?

Another iteration of the same query: How do you install them without using NM?

 

[electrofelon]

The question is simple: What do you do if your AHJ has disallowed NM?

Another iteration of the same query: How do you install them without using NM?

I have installed them with MC cable. What is the problem?

 

[winnie]

Are you asking about the mains voltage power to the driver box, or the low voltage wire from driver to lamp?

Jon

 

[Jerramundi]

MC to mounted junction box, then a fixture whip to the light.

Bam. Done.

But I don't work in Chicago, so I run NM to 'em all day long. I just need to make sure my layout only has no more than 2 cables to each light.... there's not enough room for 3 in those boxes.

Well props to you sir for actually doing the box fill on a recessed light. Well done.

However, I don't see how MC is applicable to this situation as it's already an assembled fixture. If there exists a product like this that doesn't come with a pre-assembled cable to a junction box (i.e. simply an LED trim that w/ 1/2" KO's) I could see MC being a plausible solution to my proposed issue... but this is already assembled with a cable that isn't removable.

 

[Jerramundi]

The issue of securing the jbox has been discussed on here before. I dont see what the use or non use of NM has to do with anything - the cable between the jbox and the light is part of the listed light assembly.

The cable may be part of the listed light assembly, but just because it's listed doesn't mean it's acceptable.

As an example, because I know this fixture isn't using NM cable... I can't use listed NM cable in a municipality that has outlawed NM. In other words, again, just because it's listed, doesn't mean it's acceptable.

 

[electrofelon]

I am still failing to see what the issue is. I think the concern is the nonmetallic whip between the jbox and the led unit, and the thinking is if NM is not allowed than that nonmetallic whip is not allowed? Is that correct? I do not see any code justification for that argument.

 

[Jerramundi]

The J-box contains a driver which converts the 120V down to a relatively low voltage for the LEDs, very likely less than 30V.
The following excerpt from the Chicago Electrical Code for low voltage lighting would allow the wiring system of the fixture above assuming that it's listed:

View attachment 2553667

Okay. Well IF the j-box contains a driver that steps the voltage down I could see this being acceptable. But the driver would have to be in the j-box, not in the LED trim.

 

[electrofelon]

The cable may be part of the listed light assembly, but just because it's listed doesn't mean it's acceptable.

As an example, because I know this fixture isn't using NM cable... I can't use listed NM cable in a municipality that has outlawed NM. In other words, again, just because it's listed, doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Of course an AHJ can determine what is acceptable and make a rule about it. Do they have a rule prohibiting those type of fixtures?

 

[Jerramundi]

I am still failing to see what the issue is. I think the concern is the nonmetallic whip between the jbox and the led unit, and the thinking is if NM is not allowed than that nonmetallic whip is not allowed? Is that correct? I do not see any code justification for that argument.

You are MOSTLY correct. The concern is the nonmetallic cable, but that particular cable AT 120V.

Maybe it's the Chicagoan in me, and the fact that we aren't allowed to use NM, but I've developed this idea that anything above 50V has to be contained within a metal raceway. Maybe that's not substantiated by code, but it seems to be the norm around here.

 

[winnie]

I think synchro's post answers this for Chicago. The cord between the driver box and the lamp head is low voltage secondary conductor, and if part of a listed assembly is acceptable even though NM would be prohibited for bringing 120V to the driver box.

Of course if this is an unlisted item bought off of Amazon.....

-Jon

 

[Jerramundi]

Are you asking about the mains voltage power to the driver box, or the low voltage wire from driver to lamp?

Jon

The cable from the box to the lamp being 120V and not in a metal raceway in a jurisdiction where NM cable has been outlawed.

The only ones of these I've installed before did NOT have a driver in j-box. The driver was in the lamp.
Therefore that 6"-12" of cable would be 120V and unless line voltage was allowable in NM cable, I can't see that as being acceptable.

If the cable is indeed low voltage, I can see it being acceptable in my area.