Inspectors conflicting

Status
Not open for further replies.
Fred B

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Just starting job that was left unfinished (or at least uninspected) and contacted inspector about some questions and got two different answers from two inspectors. New homeowner wants the old wire that hadn't been updated replaced (old brittle cloth wrap and bx) and receptacles with no grounds. No problem with fixing that, but question is do I need to add AFCI breakers on all circuits that would require them as if it was new install or leave old standard breakers and just update the wire? There is no plans for any added circuits or additional outlet receptacles? One inspector says most definitely have to add AFCI on all the applicable circuits. Other inspector says it's a repair no need to change what is there.
If anything by putting grounded wire in it will make it safer for use with grounded tools or appliances compared to using those cheater adapters on the end of the plug.
Which inspector is right? Adding all AFCIs would add at least $1500 to the job, if I can even get them. Not that cost is a problem just getting them might be.
 
This has been a hotly debated subject in our area. New boss (building official) wanted arc-fault breakers on all panel upgrades. After receiving a collective pushback from the community here he contacted an NEC code trainer and they said that was not the intent of code. So he backed off and is allowing service upgrades without requiring new breakers. Your scenario hasn't come up but I would bet that he would say yes, arc-fault breakers would be required. I personally disagree and for the same reasons you mentioned. If a local electrician asked me for a tailgate meeting to figure out a solution I would recommend doing the work the customer could afford to make the system safer and if the AHJ said AFCI breakers were required then I would recommend asking for an extension on the permit allowing the customer to save for the future upgrade. I can't imagine any AHJ not allowing use and occupancy based on what they could afford, after all it's got to be safer than what's there now right? They could ask for some kind of "hold harmless" agreement or a contract to extend the permit, but I doubt they would deny service connection. That's my two cents.
 
So if I am to understand what has been said, we are obligated for any repair work to bring the entire circuit upgraded to latest code, not just when adding on. A $2 receptacle will now cost a customer $70 plus labor ($2 +$68 for the afci breaker), for the homeowner that just wanted to make their child's room safer by putting in TR for $2 each figuring on $10 but because I have to put in an AFCI they will say "r u kidding, forget that". Or they'll just go to a GC, handiman who quotes them the $2 and $20/hr labor no AFCI.
Or worse yet if they have a MWBC, let's now get an AFCI for that at $130, if it's even available for that panel mfg., or have to replace the whole panel for that $2 receptacle, about $3k over that same little receptacle.
We're starting to gain ground with the hated attorney or insurance adjuster in the public's eyes. Many already feel we are overcharging even at $45/hr, and are ripping them off.
Don't get me wrong I'm not anti AFCI, and I will always present and recommend that option upgrade, but if I have to tell them they have to do it in order for me to fix that broken receptacle, it won't get fixed, or at least not by me, they'll get that handiman who can't even get the polarity right on the receptacle.
 
Fred B said:
So if I am to understand what has been said, we are obligated for any repair work to bring the entire circuit upgraded to latest code, not just when adding on. A $2 receptacle will now cost a customer $70 plus labor ($2 +$68 for the afci breaker), for the homeowner that just wanted to make their child's room safer by putting in TR for $2 each figuring on $10 but because I have to put in an AFCI they will say "r u kidding, forget that". Or they'll just go to a GC, handiman who quotes them the $2 and $20/hr labor no AFCI.
Or worse yet if they have a MWBC, let's now get an AFCI for that at $130, if it's even available for that panel mfg., or have to replace the whole panel for that $2 receptacle, about $3k over that same little receptacle.
We're starting to gain ground with the hated attorney or insurance adjuster in the public's eyes. Many already feel we are overcharging even at $45/hr, and are ripping them off.
Don't get me wrong I'm not anti AFCI, and I will always present and recommend that option upgrade, but if I have to tell them they have to do it in order for me to fix that broken receptacle, it won't get fixed, or at least not by me, they'll get that handiman who can't even get the polarity right on the receptacle.
Click to expand...

You are just replacing in kind. Now I understand if the original was say GE and you use a Lutron. Only nuclear plants have to use the exact brand and model.

I can even understand if you have to upgrade to tamper resistant because current Code makes it non-retroactive. But Code recognizes EXISTING work. If it’s the “entire circuit” are you now responsible from the service entrance on? That’s certainly not what Code requires or intended. If you replaced say a breaker in a sub panel you shouldn’t have to rework the main panel too nor the breakers next to it.

Not recognizing existing work turns Code on its head. This is like the problem of evaluating say a 1943 house based on 1943 Code. NFPA has an entire Code specifically covering existing work and it even has sort of a Code history in it.
 
ptonsparky said:
I have not had one customer tell me No, because of added AFCI or GFCI costs. Explain it as ‘Codes have changed’.
Click to expand...
I have (both of above statements), and I've seen them get a handiman just do it without an AFCI, (GFCI seem to be different not sure why unless it has been better promoted by media and even handiman as a safety item), we have no requirements for a license electrician here, and very little enforcement unless you are trying to be above board and do it right. I know because been called in to "fix" an issue that happened after a handiman did his thing. They forgot they called me to do it originally and they declined over AFCI and added cost of it, I arrive and find new installs of new circuit with no AFCI, no inspection, it was new install not just repair.
 
I guess this is why the term AHJ has relevance. Somebody has to make the call at a local level. I've had 5 different Building Officials in 3 years and they each had their own take and opinions on things like this. The code is intended to recognize existing, like you said, so simply replacing a receptacle should (IMO) be a maintenance thing, not treated as new. According to my current BO, adding a new outlet and/or 6 feet or more of new wire, that circuit is supposed to be upgraded. But he also wanted them when you get a service upgrade though, and he let that go. This particular topic seems to be one that each AHJ has to make a call on. I hope that an understanding individual making the call on the OP would allow them to make the upgrades they can afford. If they want the AFCI breakers, give them some flexibility and allow those upgrades to be made at a later date.
 
Joe.B said:
I guess this is why the term AHJ has relevance. Somebody has to make the call at a local level. I've had 5 different Building Officials in 3 years and they each had their own take and opinions on things like this. The code is intended to recognize existing, like you said, so simply replacing a receptacle should (IMO) be a maintenance thing, not treated as new. According to my current BO, adding a new outlet and/or 6 feet or more of new wire, that circuit is supposed to be upgraded. But he also wanted them when you get a service upgrade though, and he let that go. This particular topic seems to be one that each AHJ has to make a call on. I hope that an understanding individual making the call on the OP would allow them to make the upgrades they can afford. If they want the AFCI breakers, give them some flexibility and allow those upgrades to be made at a later date.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, just reread section of code, I was originally told by AHJ no AFCI required, but was just called and told by him he was wrong and it does need to be brought up to code, AFCI is required. Quoting 210.12(D) Branch Circuit Extension or Modification - Dwelling Units and Dormitory Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A) of (B), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of branch circuit......
So it appears that if you replace damaged wire it needs AFCI protection. I too have to break it to the customer the job just jumped up by $1200.
 
I think option (2) might be cheaper:

(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit-type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit

Apparently for branch circuit modification or replacement, it is allowed to leave the first branch circuit segment unprotected, which would not be allowed for a new circuit.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Fred B said:
One inspector says most definitely have to add AFCI on all the applicable circuits. Other inspector says it's a repair no need to change what is there.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you do need to add AFCI protection per Code.

BUT

We've talked about where you are before. No licenses and no inspections required. I understand you are trying to do the right thing by volunteering for an inspection, but from what I've seen of similar work installing new circuits there by other electrical contractors I've not seen one AFCI.

So my advice is either do the best you can to make the (bogus) case for AFCIs and get the customer on board to pay, or get the inspection company who says it's a repair, or none of the above and do the work without AFCIs and sleep well at night because you saved the customer from some jack leg handyman who would make it worse.

-Hal
 
I believe some of the wording is if extending more than 6' or modifying the circuit arc fault required. Isn't extending the circuit 5' modifying the circuit???
 
Fred B said:
So if I am to understand what has been said, we are obligated for any repair work to bring the entire circuit upgraded to latest code, not just when adding on. A $2 receptacle will now cost a customer $70 plus labor ($2 +$68 for the afci breaker), for the homeowner that just wanted to make their child's room safer by putting in TR for $2 each figuring on $10 but because I have to put in an AFCI they will say "r u kidding, forget that". Or they'll just go to a GC, handiman who quotes them the $2 and $20/hr labor no AFCI.
Or worse yet if they have a MWBC, let's now get an AFCI for that at $130, if it's even available for that panel mfg., or have to replace the whole panel for that $2 receptacle, about $3k over that same little receptacle.
We're starting to gain ground with the hated attorney or insurance adjuster in the public's eyes. Many already feel we are overcharging even at $45/hr, and are ripping them off.
Don't get me wrong I'm not anti AFCI, and I will always present and recommend that option upgrade, but if I have to tell them they have to do it in order for me to fix that broken receptacle, it won't get fixed, or at least not by me, they'll get that handiman who can't even get the polarity right on the receptacle.
Click to expand...
Just use an AFCI receptacle for the replacement. Here in NJ this section of the NEC has been deleted.
 
Shhh!
I won't tell if you don't.
1) have old failing wiring, customer cannot afford to bring it to ( new and improved) code.
B) do nothing people live in failing system.
C) replace with new wire and devices .
Well live or die isn't that what we are talking about safety?
I would bring it up to code as far as possible and have customer put the responsibility on them in writing. If no inspection is required.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top