"reverse 180 degrees" circuit breaker?

[Gizmobreaker1155]

I'm looking at a drawing that shows conversion from a commercial space (retail) to residential in an existing 14 story apartment building in New York City (Manhattan). The commercial space had their own service though I do not know if they had their own service entrance. The building was erected in the late 1920's so there's every possibility that they had their own SE conductors installed at some point.
The drawings show the existing incoming electrical service, an existing meter cabinet, and an existing service switch followed by an existing 1200 amp distro panel into which they will "install 6 new 200 amp, 3 pole circuit breakers, reverse 180 degrees". What does "reverse 180 degrees" mean in this context? Are they wiring the CBs backwards? I've never seen this, before.
Thank you for any help you can provide.

 

[480sparky]

Submit an RFI.

 

[electrofelon]

I haven't the slightest clue what that might mean.

 

[synchro]

Is there anything earlier in the sentence that the 180 degrees may refer to other than the breakers themselves? If not then 480sparky has a good recommendation on submitting an RFI.

 

[hillbilly1]

Kinda sounds like they are doing the six switch rule? If they are on 2020, they won’t be able to do that.

 

[Gizmobreaker1155]

- NYC has not adopted the 2020 NEC, yet. We're only up to 2008.
- Pretty sure that it could only refer to the breakers. Here's the sentence, in its entirety, as formatted on the drawing:
"Existing 1200 amp
distribution panel for
retail tenant
install six (6) new 200
amp, 3 pole circuit
breakers,
reverse 180 degrees"
- An RFI will reveal my ignorance! Oh, well,was hoping to learn something without tipping my hand.
Thanks, everyone.

 

[hillbilly1]

Maybe three on one side, three on the other?

 

[Gizmobreaker1155]

Since they are 3 pole breakers, I'm not sure why that would matter but it's the best answer, so far! (NYC is not a high leg town.)

 

[Hv&Lv]

- An RFI will reveal my ignorance! Oh, well,was hoping to learn something without tipping my hand.
Thanks, everyone.

I would say if you don’t have a definitive answer by Monday AM an RFI would make sense.
If no one here knows what they are talking about it could be the engineers ignorance on what he is trying to describe.

 

[wwhitney]

Is it possible that they mean "existing . . . panel . . . reverse 180 degrees"? I.e. flip the whole panel around?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jerramundi]

It sounds like they are asking you to "reverse feed" the CB's... but I've only researched this briefly out of personal curiosity and never come across it in the field as a mostly residential electrician. Maybe some of the more seasoned commercial guys on here can expand on the idea of reverse feeding.

I agree that the way the sentence is structured it seems to apply to the CB's. "Reverse feeding" the CB's is the only thing I can think of in that case. Why specify the 180 deg instead of just saying "reverse feed," I'm not sure.

The only other thing I can think of that 180 deg could be referring to would be the phases, but I can't see how that would be applicable.

 

[Gizmobreaker1155]

I don't think that they mean to move or rotate the panel, in any way, but that's a possibility. Worst wording, ever, though, if that's what they want.

In order to reverse feed the circuit breakers, you would need to somehow insert the CBs into the panel, flipped around. Even if they are bolt-ins, I've never seen a breaker that could be installed that way. On DIN rail mounted breakers, sure, but this is an existing panel. And it wouldn't do any good to feed the individual breakers from their outputs and draw from the bus bars - there are 6 CBs for 6 new apartments. The CBs wouldn't offer any protection until the load reached (about) 1200 amps.

I think that the RFI is the only way to go. They've been stupendously slow on responding, but I sure would like to know what they are talking about.

 

[oldsparky52]

- An RFI will reveal my ignorance! Oh, well,was hoping to learn something without tipping my hand.

Your ignorance? I think not. It could be a simple as the engineer understood what he/she meant but didn't realize his/her terminology is not what they think it is. How many times have you said something to someone only to realize the reason they didn't understand what you meant is that a key word meant something different to them than it did to you? (don't say never, )

You should ask w/out any embarrassment

 

[Little Bill]

I'm sure it wouldn't mean back-feed or reverse feed since it's an existing panel. You couldn't back-feed more than one breaker. My money is on 3 one one side and 3 on the other, making them 180 from each other. Would have been a lot easier to just say "put in 6 breakers, 3 on each side, side by side. But I agree, RFI!!!

 

[480sparky]

Your ignorance? I think not. It could be a simple as the engineer understood what he/she meant but didn't realize his/her terminology is not what they think it is. How many times have you said something to someone only to realize the reason they didn't understand what you meant is that a key word meant something different to them than it did to you? (don't say never, )

You should ask w/out any embarrassment

Amen to that. I installed "Horsepower-rated switches" for disconnects on some fractional HP motors in a commercial setting. Motors were pumps for the hot water heat system. I installed simple toggle switches that were rated for 2HP. Engineer said they were wrong. He spec'd "Horsepower-rated switches", and that what should be installed.

I said "They're switches... and they have a horsepower rating right on the strap. See?" as I remove the cover to show him.

"No! Those are NOT horsepower-rated switches!" he complained. I asked him to show me, specifically, what he wanted.








Turned out, he wanted FSUs.

I never wanted to slap anyone more in my whole life.

 

[Gizmobreaker1155]

At least he knew what he wanted, even if he couldn't figure out what to call it! Of course, he's an engineer, so he's probably never built anything and has no idea how electricity works in the real world, but he has a license! I should confess that I know a large number of excellent engineers who really know their stuff and who have spent a lot of time in the field. You just ran into one who cut class that day.

 

[480sparky]

He knew what he wanted. He was also very well practiced in the art of belittling and blaming those who didn't understand his own personal terminology. I was glad when that job was done.

 

[hillbilly1]

I'm sure it wouldn't mean back-feed or reverse feed since it's an existing panel. You couldn't back-feed more than one breaker. My money is on 3 one one side and 3 on the other, making them 180 from each other. Would have been a lot easier to just say "put in 6 breakers, 3 on each side, side by side. But I agree, RFI!!!

Or slot 2,4,6, 8,10,12 etc.!

 

[LarryFine]

Phase rotation?

 

[James L]

"Reverse 180 degrees" sounds like a double negative to me because 180 degrees already is reverse.

So it sounds like "put them in straight"

I'd ask for the engineer's phone number and ask him, "whatchu talkin' bout, Willis?"

Being in New York, he might appreciate that