Why is Knoxville and East Tennessee exempt from following the NEC?

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Rgator53

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Location
USA
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Actually, I know it is not, but why does it seem that I might be about the only one around here that realizes this?

There are contractors building houses, sunrooms, screen rooms, decks, and the like without pulling any permits. They laugh when asked about permits and building codes and simply say it does not apply to them. And this seems like the usual attitude of the people around here. If the job can be done for less money by not following codes, the owners will usually go for it.

They will add a sunroom to a house, no permits, run electrical home runs for the AC/heat and outlets with numerous NEC violations along the way, and then just walk away, proud of their work!

My father had a huge electrical contracting business when I was a kid, so I grew up in the business. As the assistant estimator, I had to really learn the code and use it to my advantage. Then I started doing my own electrical work around Denver, CO where they are very tough on the codes and inspections. (Or at least they used to be back in the late 70s, 80s, and 90s.)

Back in 1995 when I was last living here I went to speak to the head electrical inspector of Knoxville and to show him a bad code violation in the apartment building I lived in. I showed him in the NEC where it is a violation and he literally told me they didn't have to follow all of the codebook there! I asked him on the spot whether he thought he was in the USA or not. I gave up doing any more electrical work at that point until I moved back to Denver where they do respect the NEC.

Now I'm back here again and it seems that nothing has changed, they are still using the SBC as their guide. (Southern Building Code) I had another contractor tell me that if the customer wants a dedicated GFCI circuit for their step-in tub, that it is an extra charge because they just connect to the closest circuit they can find! For that particular situation, I found an open splice, just taped together and hidden in the wall that connected to a kitchen circuit! The kitchen counter had to be taken out to get to the splice and remove it. And I am seeing techniques being used that I last saw used in Mexico and Vietnam when I last visited there.

I'm not sure of why this is, but it does seem to be a big difference in the attitudes towards building and electrical codes between the people in the red and blue states. And this is not meant to be a political topic, I am just questioning as to why there is no respect for the codes here in East TN?
 
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Rgator53

Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Retired Electrician
So it seems the Missouri Ozarks has a sister region 😁
Oh yeah! Have you seen the TV series Ozarks and they are rigging the wiring on the docks? OMG! It was certain death before they started to rig it!
 
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retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
I suspect that there are more rural areas like this than we’d like to think there are. But I’m surprised it’s that way in a city as large as Knoxville.
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
Oh yeah! Have you seen the TV series Ozarks and they are rigging the wiring on the docks? OMG! It was certain death before they started to rig it!
I haven't seen the series, but I've been in the Ozarks a few times. Unspeakable.

And I know a guy who wires houses in the Ozarks....WOW

Makes my eye sockets hurt. I've never elsewhere seen such atrocious work and heinous violations
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
TN Statewide has adopted the '17 NEC with limited exceptions and some of the major metropolitan areas have their own inspection program but they are not allowed to enforce less than the State (NEC). Not saying it doesn't happen, just that's the "rule". Unsure of metro programs but, in many areas, the State program has deteriorated to a "fee collection" rather than an "inspection". Inspectors are paid by the number of inspections completed and quantity outweighs quality.
 
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I'm not sure of why this is, but it does seem to be a big difference in the attitudes towards building and electrical codes between the people in the red and blue states. And this is not meant to be a political topic, I am just questioning as to why there is no respect for the codes here in East TN?

Mods: I don't think I am being political here, just pretty much stating facts and my experience.

I don't think you can make any valid generalization about electrical trade regulation and permitting vs red and blue. Although it is tempting to think that red States and people wouldn't support mass/state regulation of what someone needs to do to earn a living and what they can do on their property, I don't think you will find such a correlation looking at red and blue States. For example, I am in NY, clearly a blue state, which does not have State licensing and geographically I bet only 5% of the state is covered by local licensing. My county essentially doesn't have a electrical permits. There are broad exceptions for building permits for "agricultural buildings". I built a 16x55 "solar shed" with 70 panels on the roof with no permits. My house does not have a building permit. The assessor did see it on the aerial maps several years ago and increased my assessment to the "with improvements" category but thats it. No one cares. Show me the "long" list of "red states" where I can do all this. IMO "red" has nothing to do at all with "small government" anymore.
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
I think it can be summed up like this....

They don't know enough to care
and they don't care enough to know

iow, they don't enough about their trade to really care about the quality of their work. But they don't care enough about quality to even be concerned about learning.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I think it can be summed up like this....

They don't know enough to care
and they don't care enough to know

iow, they don't enough about their trade to really care about the quality of their work. But they don't care enough about quality to even be concerned about learning.
As has always been the case, codes advance one death at a time. Or a whole bunch. That's the only way it happens.
 

Rgator53

Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I suspect that there are more rural areas like this than we’d like to think there are. But I’m surprised it’s that way in a city as large as Knoxville.
Knoxville is not really even a city, it's just a small town with a bunch of people. There's not enough mentality here for it to be deemed a city.
 

Rgator53

Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Mods: I don't think I am being political here, just pretty much stating facts and my experience.

I don't think you can make any valid generalization about electrical trade regulation and permitting vs red and blue. Although it is tempting to think that red States and people wouldn't support mass/state regulation of what someone needs to do to earn a living and what they can do on their property, I don't think you will find such a correlation looking at red and blue States. For example, I am in NY, clearly a blue state, which does not have State licensing and geographically I bet only 5% of the state is covered by local licensing. My county essentially doesn't have a electrical permits. There are broad exceptions for building permits for "agricultural buildings". I built a 16x55 "solar shed" with 70 panels on the roof with no permits. My house does not have a building permit. The assessor did see it on the aerial maps several years ago and increased my assessment to the "with improvements" category but thats it. No one cares. Show me the "long" list of "red states" where I can do all this. IMO "red" has nothing to do at all with "small government" anymore.
It sounds like you're living in a 3rd world nation and not the USA. Meanwhile, NYC is one of the toughest places code-wise for electrical installations.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
You can do about what you want to in Chicago with a few under the table bucks paid to the alderman and local inspectors. I am surprised half the buildings in Chicago have not collapsed or burned down due to the endemic corruption there.
 
It sounds like you're living in a 3rd world nation and not the USA. Meanwhile, NYC is one of the toughest places code-wise for electrical installations.
And probably rightfully so, NYC is one of the densest cities out there and I think generally it's reasonable to have more rules and regulations in higher populated areas.

I also do significant work in Seattle Washington, which being a city is of course like pretty much all of them pretty highly regulated trade-wise. I really can't say that I see better quality work there then here where it is very unregulated.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
I haven't seen the series, but I've been in the Ozarks a few times. Unspeakable.

And I know a guy who wires houses in the Ozarks....WOW

Makes my eye sockets hurt. I've never elsewhere seen such atrocious work and heinous violations
They film at my buddies house (not that one) his is the real nice one. They take down all of his light fixtures, put up their own. Take out all the furniture and put in their own. He called me up one day, and said they had been filming, and his chandelier and Sub Zero refrigerator quit working. I dropped by, and found someone messed with the chandelier lowering switch, and dropped it a couple of inches. He found out they turned off his refrigerator because they could hear it running during filming, and forgot to turn it back on!
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
They film at my buddies house (not that one) his is the real nice one. They take down all of his light fixtures, put up their own. Take out all the furniture and put in their own. He called me up one day, and said they had been filming, and his chandelier and Sub Zero refrigerator quit working. I dropped by, and found someone messed with the chandelier lowering switch, and dropped it a couple of inches. He found out they turned off his refrigerator because they could hear it running during filming, and forgot to turn it back on!
Seems like a lot if effort to remake for a set
 

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
You can do about what you want to in Chicago with a few under the table bucks paid to the alderman and local inspectors. I am surprised half the buildings in Chicago have not collapsed or burned down due to the endemic corruption there.
Aw, say it ain't so. I don't think that's true. ... It would be significantly more than just "a few" bucks. ;)
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Knoxville is not really even a city, it's just a small town with a bunch of people. There's not enough mentality here for it to be deemed a city.

My comment was based on the population. I’ve never heard of an urban area with over 400,000 residents called a “small town.” But I do get your point!
 
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